5 ms·

Anti-modernity is a tiresome perspective. It's always the same: the past was some kind of lost idealistic state and the contemporary world is a fallen and corru

Anti-modernity is a tiresome perspective. It's always the same: the past was some kind of lost idealistic state and the contemporary world is a fallen and corrupt one inimical to the human spirit. Every generation has had people who thought this way, going back at least as far as the Sumerians. so what? Writing something doesn't make it true. In reality, technology has been a huge boon to humanity, and the more of it we have, the better. > Where formerly we ate what was in season, we now have produce shipped around the globe, sometimes raw foods shipped across the ocean and turned into process foods and then shipped right back again Yes. Now instead of eating salt pork and tubers all winter, we can enjoy a healthy and balanced diet year-round. How inefficient. > We used to die quickly at home when we were incurably sick; now we cling to half-life for years or decades. People like Stephen Hawking can lead a full life. How inefficient. > We used to let our kids out the front door when they were bored, now we drive them all over town for everything in their busy calendar. Travel across town can happen in minutes, not hours. Our kids can visit their friends and have rich social connections instead of helping with the corn harvest. How inefficient. > When we wanted to learn how to do a job, we'd talk to someone doing it and start working directly under them, quickly making ourselves useful. Now we spend years learning totally unrelated stuff, just to prove that we're human beings with a pulse who can be hired. Previously, you were born into a trade and just joined your father's guild. Now someone of any background can prove himself via an impartial process and work on problems he feels passionate about. How inefficient. > Now, flying across the world to have fun is 'necessary,' because parks and natural areas in our own backyards are not enough Now people can experience all humanity has to offer instead of limiting their perspectives to whatever backwater their parents happened to call home. How inefficient.

bambax 6y ago
> Our kids can visit their friends and have rich social connections instead of helping with the corn harvest. The reason our kids don't help with the corn harvest and have "rich social connections" (?) is that we hire immigrants do it, paying them as little as possible and denying them basic rights.
- ekianjo 6y ago
  Have you ever heard of the industrialization of agriculture? We dont use humans to pick up everything anymore. If that were the case your food would cost 100 times more.
  - jordanbeiber 6y ago
    You could take a bigger perspective and in this bigger perspective we outsource a lot of dangerous and dirty work to countries where human rights hardly exists, or can be bought. Ever heard about sweat-shops and children in mines? This goes for parts of the food industry as well - bananas springs to mind as an example. We do use human labour, just not as much in the west, and most of us live in convenient ignorance.
    - hef19898 6y ago
      And just 70 years ago we had similar circumstances in the western world. There is no reason to believe that sweat shops and child labour won't go away in developing countries as well. That's the thing about progress, you can be better off than yesterday, and still have a shit load of problems to solve.
      - jordanbeiber 6y ago
        I hear you. Still, from what I gather we’ve peaked the heck out of this industrialization and not enough of the gains have reached enough people. As people we know better, but as industrialized conglomerates all that is out the window. Seeing how the world is ruled at present I’m weary of the outlook.
- hrktb 6y ago
  Is it the immigrants harvesting corn you are thinking about: https://www.crushpixel.com/stock-photo/harvesting-machine-field-harvesting-corn-812011.html https://www.crushpixel.com/stock-photo/harvesting-machine-fi...
  - 6y ago
el_oni 6y ago
You're not wrong, but at the same time, our western lives have lead to the exploitation of both the people and the resources of less economically developed nations. It seems our geographic removal from that exploitation leads to an emotional removal from it in a lot of people too
- zozbot234 6y ago
  The less economically developed nations that are now being raised from poverty at an unprecedented rate? I don't support extractive colonialism or anything like that, but it's weird how free and open trade is so often described as one nation "exploiting" another.
- ekianjo 6y ago
  Developing nations are actually very happy to have work instead of abject poverty which was their state before.
  - el_oni 6y ago
    Im sure nations are very happy with increasing GDP, and im sure families are happy to receive 5c/h manufacturing clothes for a multibillion dollar multinational corperation. Just because their lives are better doesnt mean we are doing good. Not to mention that india and most of africa wouldnt be living in abject poverty were it not for western colonialism. Let's go to your country, destroy your society and culture, then build a factory and pay you pennies. Then you can thank me for pulling you out of poverty. It's a tough sell
Erlich_Bachman 6y ago
It is easy to call your perspective subjective, and people often will. You have listed many variables here, and considered together they paint a certain picture of the world. And yet, someone else could come up with many more other variables which would paint a completely different picture and outcome. Our life and the world in general are indeed very complex. However, when I hear proponents of the anti-modernity, it is hard to take them seriously because I immediately start to wonder why is it that that they don't walk the walk and demonstrate the correctness of their estimation of the inadequacy of the modern world by moving their lives to a small village, a forest, a wild the tribe or any other place still existing today that lives by the old standards. There is no shortage of these places, that by modern standards should be considered prehistoric. There are many perfectly functional tribes existing today, that are still operating in largely the same way as they did thousands of years ago. They live in tight connection with nature, they don't use technology, they are not subjected to apparently very dangerous and devious hazards of our modern world like small smartphone screens, long commutes in personal vehicles and overwhelming amounts of freedoms that we suffer in the city life. These tribes would be perfectly willing to accept in new members because in their present condition they always require more workforce. If the tribe life is not what one is looking for, it would surely be just as easy to move out into a forest or another natural place. 100% of the problems discussed in this topic would be completely resolved by changing the life situation in this way. And yet you don't see people moving out of the modern society into prehistoric tribes by the hundreds of thousands. They complain about how bad the life is in the modern world, and yet don't take any of the obvious steps available to them for quickly resolving all of the issues. This observation makes me seriously question how much of what these people say and what they are complaining about can we really trust even as accurate representations of what they believe. Life is much easier and makes much more sense when we start judging what people believe by what they do and not by what they say.
- cousin_it 6y ago
  You could say city folks have a revealed preference to live in the city, to be kind of sickly, and to have few kids. Or you could say city life is like an addictive drug, and when people say "I wish I could get out", they're being sincere. I wonder which perspective is more true.
michaelgrafl 6y ago
You're purposefully misinterpreting the parent's point to discredit them in a way that fits your agenda. Every single one of your examples represents the ideal outcome of the use of modern technology, as if most people's diet during Winter is more nutritious than dried or pickled meat and produce, or as if the only alternative to driving your kids to a friend in an SUV is to let it do hard manual labor on a field.
erikerikson 6y ago
I haven't taken the hypothesis as "anti-modernity" but simply, "we can do yet better". These points declare benefits but felt like strawmen to me. It is better than it was in many ways and there are many ways we will continue improving. Often identifying those opportunities is part of achieving them. > Eating Yes, that's why we do it but many eat repetitively and miss out on a lot of flavors and discovery they would likely enjoy, especially if poor. I wish high product quality would also be sustainably industrialized. > Death I hope to live well then die quickly and inexpensively. Being brain-dead on life support brings me no value and would cost my family a lot. It was legally mandated where I live in Washington state for a long time. > Kids Raising the bar on safety by creating laws that punish parents for letting their kids walk to the park or school or roam in the "hood" on their own is real. They used to "visit their friends and have rich social interactions) running freely around their neighborhood. That written, this seemed a point of evidence stretched in the article. > Learning I have to agree that this was a weak point. It forgoes the benefits of cross-disciplinary research and the advances due there. But the description references college degrees as a stamp of approval rather than as a source of knowledge (and perhaps wisdom) which, in some cases, applies and is a shame. > Travel Yes, a limited set can experience more. The hedonic treadmill is real and it does seem we've lost appreciation for what we have as well as our stewardship of those resources and ability to create more of them. We chase the "best" and often miss out on much. In conclusion, yes the article was imperfect and most of us can agree that modernity brought many advantages but we seem a bit stuck in some ways and there have been unforseen and undesirable outcomes. Identifying where allows us to continue making it better and doing so more broadly.

bambax 6y ago

> Our kids can visit their friends and have rich social connections instead of helping with the corn harvest. The reason our kids don't help with the corn harvest and have "rich social connections" (?) is that we hire immigrants do it, paying them as little as possible and denying them basic rights.

ekianjo 6y ago
Have you ever heard of the industrialization of agriculture? We dont use humans to pick up everything anymore. If that were the case your food would cost 100 times more.
- jordanbeiber 6y ago
  You could take a bigger perspective and in this bigger perspective we outsource a lot of dangerous and dirty work to countries where human rights hardly exists, or can be bought. Ever heard about sweat-shops and children in mines? This goes for parts of the food industry as well - bananas springs to mind as an example. We do use human labour, just not as much in the west, and most of us live in convenient ignorance.
  - hef19898 6y ago
    And just 70 years ago we had similar circumstances in the western world. There is no reason to believe that sweat shops and child labour won't go away in developing countries as well. That's the thing about progress, you can be better off than yesterday, and still have a shit load of problems to solve.
    - jordanbeiber 6y ago
      I hear you. Still, from what I gather we’ve peaked the heck out of this industrialization and not enough of the gains have reached enough people. As people we know better, but as industrialized conglomerates all that is out the window. Seeing how the world is ruled at present I’m weary of the outlook.
hrktb 6y ago
Is it the immigrants harvesting corn you are thinking about: https://www.crushpixel.com/stock-photo/harvesting-machine-field-harvesting-corn-812011.html https://www.crushpixel.com/stock-photo/harvesting-machine-fi...
- 6y ago

el_oni 6y ago

You're not wrong, but at the same time, our western lives have lead to the exploitation of both the people and the resources of less economically developed nations. It seems our geographic removal from that exploitation leads to an emotional removal from it in a lot of people too

zozbot234 6y ago
The less economically developed nations that are now being raised from poverty at an unprecedented rate? I don't support extractive colonialism or anything like that, but it's weird how free and open trade is so often described as one nation "exploiting" another.
ekianjo 6y ago
Developing nations are actually very happy to have work instead of abject poverty which was their state before.
- el_oni 6y ago
  Im sure nations are very happy with increasing GDP, and im sure families are happy to receive 5c/h manufacturing clothes for a multibillion dollar multinational corperation. Just because their lives are better doesnt mean we are doing good. Not to mention that india and most of africa wouldnt be living in abject poverty were it not for western colonialism. Let's go to your country, destroy your society and culture, then build a factory and pay you pennies. Then you can thank me for pulling you out of poverty. It's a tough sell

Erlich_Bachman 6y ago

It is easy to call your perspective subjective, and people often will. You have listed many variables here, and considered together they paint a certain picture of the world. And yet, someone else could come up with many more other variables which would paint a completely different picture and outcome. Our life and the world in general are indeed very complex. However, when I hear proponents of the anti-modernity, it is hard to take them seriously because I immediately start to wonder why is it that that they don't walk the walk and demonstrate the correctness of their estimation of the inadequacy of the modern world by moving their lives to a small village, a forest, a wild the tribe or any other place still existing today that lives by the old standards. There is no shortage of these places, that by modern standards should be considered prehistoric. There are many perfectly functional tribes existing today, that are still operating in largely the same way as they did thousands of years ago. They live in tight connection with nature, they don't use technology, they are not subjected to apparently very dangerous and devious hazards of our modern world like small smartphone screens, long commutes in personal vehicles and overwhelming amounts of freedoms that we suffer in the city life. These tribes would be perfectly willing to accept in new members because in their present condition they always require more workforce. If the tribe life is not what one is looking for, it would surely be just as easy to move out into a forest or another natural place. 100% of the problems discussed in this topic would be completely resolved by changing the life situation in this way. And yet you don't see people moving out of the modern society into prehistoric tribes by the hundreds of thousands. They complain about how bad the life is in the modern world, and yet don't take any of the obvious steps available to them for quickly resolving all of the issues. This observation makes me seriously question how much of what these people say and what they are complaining about can we really trust even as accurate representations of what they believe. Life is much easier and makes much more sense when we start judging what people believe by what they do and not by what they say.

cousin_it 6y ago
You could say city folks have a revealed preference to live in the city, to be kind of sickly, and to have few kids. Or you could say city life is like an addictive drug, and when people say "I wish I could get out", they're being sincere. I wonder which perspective is more true.

michaelgrafl 6y ago

You're purposefully misinterpreting the parent's point to discredit them in a way that fits your agenda. Every single one of your examples represents the ideal outcome of the use of modern technology, as if most people's diet during Winter is more nutritious than dried or pickled meat and produce, or as if the only alternative to driving your kids to a friend in an SUV is to let it do hard manual labor on a field.

erikerikson 6y ago

I haven't taken the hypothesis as "anti-modernity" but simply, "we can do yet better". These points declare benefits but felt like strawmen to me. It is better than it was in many ways and there are many ways we will continue improving. Often identifying those opportunities is part of achieving them. > Eating Yes, that's why we do it but many eat repetitively and miss out on a lot of flavors and discovery they would likely enjoy, especially if poor. I wish high product quality would also be sustainably industrialized. > Death I hope to live well then die quickly and inexpensively. Being brain-dead on life support brings me no value and would cost my family a lot. It was legally mandated where I live in Washington state for a long time. > Kids Raising the bar on safety by creating laws that punish parents for letting their kids walk to the park or school or roam in the "hood" on their own is real. They used to "visit their friends and have rich social interactions) running freely around their neighborhood. That written, this seemed a point of evidence stretched in the article. > Learning I have to agree that this was a weak point. It forgoes the benefits of cross-disciplinary research and the advances due there. But the description references college degrees as a stamp of approval rather than as a source of knowledge (and perhaps wisdom) which, in some cases, applies and is a shame. > Travel Yes, a limited set can experience more. The hedonic treadmill is real and it does seem we've lost appreciation for what we have as well as our stewardship of those resources and ability to create more of them. We chase the "best" and often miss out on much. In conclusion, yes the article was imperfect and most of us can agree that modernity brought many advantages but we seem a bit stuck in some ways and there have been unforseen and undesirable outcomes. Identifying where allows us to continue making it better and doing so more broadly.