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> This, unfortunately, is the story for every public infrastructure in Italy. Do you have any data to support this argument?

by ghego1 6y ago

peach 6y ago
Quick search for "corruzione opere pubbliche" revealed this article which links to a study... https://www.edilportale.com/news/2020/02/normativa/corruzione-in-italia-un-caso-alla-settimana-lavori-pubblici-in-testa_74700_15.html https://www.edilportale.com/news/2020/02/normativa/corruzion...
dailygrind___ 6y ago
There's plenty of books written about this topic. In recent experience, I remember the World Expo Milan fair in 2015, L'Aquila earthquake works, or even the Coronavirus Hospital in Milano - 21 milion euros to host 25 patients - all ended up with arrests due to corruption. In the past the legendary motorway Salerno-Reggio Calabria took decades to complete and was a major attraction for public investment and mafia suppliers. These days, the government is thinking about building a bridge between Calabria and Sicily. This project has been talked about for decades, it's completely useless (I won't go in detail here, but the road network in southern Italy is in a really bad state) and with the upcoming European Union injection of money, it will become the next public work that the mafia will put their hands onto. Looking at the history, it's clear why this project became suddenly important. Looking at the Corruption Perception Index (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index), Italy ranks between Saudi Arabia and Rwanda. In Press Freedom, Italy ranks between Botswana and Senegal. additional source: I'm Italian.
- lbeltrame 6y ago
  This is different from the recorded cases, after all it's a "perception" index. > In recent experience, I remember the World Expo Milan fair in 2015 I don't think the trials have been finished yet.
  - dailygrind___ 6y ago
    True, but there's 0% chance corruption wasn't a factor. For what it's worth, the former president of Lombardy, in charge till 2013, has been condemned for 9 years for criminal activities. It's just how the system works.
    - lbeltrame 6y ago
      I will wait for the final decision, personally, as I think presumption of innocence still holds, even if I might disagree at a personal or political level with the accused.
      - afiori 6y ago
        In this context presumption of innocence is different from presuming the crime did not happen. Presumption of innocence could be that even if you 100% sure corruption was pervasive you keep in mind that the people on trial might actually be innocent scapegoats.
        lbeltrame 6y ago
        That's also something the sentence at the end of the trial may cover: "not having carried out the fact" versus "the fact has not occurred". At this point, there is neither indication (nor a guilt sentence, either).
- SergeAx 6y ago
  I was in Messina Strait several times by sailboat and ferry traffic was significant every time. So there's a demand regardless the state of road network. IMO bridge would lower ferry traffic thus low-grade ship fuel consumption and overall ecology impact, wouldn't it?
- ghego1 6y ago
  The examples you mentioned are a tiny number of public works, that do not represent anything but what they are: very well known isolated cases. Every year Italian public administrations award thousands of contracts, only a small fraction of which are actually the result of corruption based on judicial data. A different problem is the perception of the level of corruption, which in Italy is very high no matter the data. I'm actually not surprised that you are Italian indeed.
  - Udik 6y ago
    > the perception of the level of corruption, which in Italy is very high no matter the data. A solid belief that everyone else is committing serious crimes is essential to rationalize your own small frauds. I have little doubt that Italians are so eager to point the finger at corruption because it helps them come to terms with their constant disregard of rules. (I speak as an Italian)
- YeGoblynQueenne 6y ago
  Well, at least in Italy people get arrested for corrpution. At first I thought you were just joking. (Note: I'm Greek) Edit: Actually, I live in the UK. People over here know how to do corruption the right way and our, Mediterrannean, pathetic excuses for corrupt politicians should really study their ways. In the UK, it's not that there is no corruption, it's that everybody who is anybody is buddy-buddies with everyone else who is anybody (say, they went to the same college, i.e. Eton), so they don't call it corruption, just "doing business". For a recent example, look up the recent non-scandal about giving an 840k quid contract to the buddy-buddies of Mike and Domz: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jul/10/firm-with-links-to-gove-and-cummings-given-covid-19-contract-without-open-tender https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jul/10/firm-with-l... So let's not all take too big a dump on us poor, corrupt Southern Europeans, because we may have invented the art (in the ancient times of old) of handing public monies to our cronies but Western Europeans turned it into a science (in modern times and not so modern times).
  - brnt 6y ago
    Naming matters. (As a northern European,) My impression is that since we won't use that word to describe things here it's easier to look away. What's corruption in Greece and Italy is called a budget overrun or government support in the Netherlands and Germany, and you won't convince many Dutch/Germans to see it any other way. After all, we don't do corruption 'round these here parts.
    - Udik 6y ago
      The Italians' perception of pervasive corruption also works as a very handy excuse for further misbehaviour. Given the three corners of the so called "triangle of fraud"- motivation, opportunity and rationalisation- a widespread knowledge that everyone is corrupt provides a very handy rationalisation (everyone is screwing me, so it's my right to do the same to the others whenever the smallest opportunity arises).
- riffraff 6y ago
  unless you have data saying "all" is wrong. You can say "many" and it will be true, and people won't argue. The "corruption perception index" is based on this sort of thing: people say "Italy is the most corrupt place in the world!" and have no data or knowledge to compare.
nelaboras 6y ago
Not data per she but an official point of critique by the EU > The business environment is improving, but strengthening Italy’s public administration, justice system and anti-corruption framework remains a challenge. The digitisation of public services is progressing. Further efforts are needed to improve public employment, especially at management level. Weak administrative capacity is diminishing the public administration’s ability to invest and carry out policy or enforcement tasks that affect businesses such as market surveillance. In this regard, a comprehensive strategy to strengthen it is missing. Inefficiencies in public procurement also remain often unaddressed. Despite recent improvements, the length of civil trials remains among the highest in the EU. Recent reforms are starting to bear fruit and an enabling law to streamline the civil procedure is under discussion. However, to reduce trial length, there is still ample room to ensure more efficient management of cases and limit unfounded appeals. The anti-corruption framework was strengthened recently, also through the anti-corruption law of January 2019. However, it needs to be completed. Indeed, no regulation sanctions conflict of interest for elected public officials, embezzlement in the private sector remains only partly criminalised, and provisions against lobbying do not apply to members of government and parliament. Moreover, the low efficiency of criminal justice in appeals continues preventing prosecuting corruption effectively. A reform of the criminal procedure and appeal system is still pending. Search for corruption or justice in this document: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?qid=1584543810241&uri=CELEX%3A52020SC0511 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?qid=15845438...

> This, unfortunately, is the story for every public infrastructure in Italy. Do you have any data to support this argument?

by ghego1 6y ago

> This, unfortunately, is the story for every public infrastructure in Italy. Do you have any data to support this argument?

peach 6y ago

Quick search for "corruzione opere pubbliche" revealed this article which links to a study... https://www.edilportale.com/news/2020/02/normativa/corruzione-in-italia-un-caso-alla-settimana-lavori-pubblici-in-testa_74700_15.html https://www.edilportale.com/news/2020/02/normativa/corruzion...

dailygrind___ 6y ago

There's plenty of books written about this topic. In recent experience, I remember the World Expo Milan fair in 2015, L'Aquila earthquake works, or even the Coronavirus Hospital in Milano - 21 milion euros to host 25 patients - all ended up with arrests due to corruption. In the past the legendary motorway Salerno-Reggio Calabria took decades to complete and was a major attraction for public investment and mafia suppliers. These days, the government is thinking about building a bridge between Calabria and Sicily. This project has been talked about for decades, it's completely useless (I won't go in detail here, but the road network in southern Italy is in a really bad state) and with the upcoming European Union injection of money, it will become the next public work that the mafia will put their hands onto. Looking at the history, it's clear why this project became suddenly important. Looking at the Corruption Perception Index (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index), Italy ranks between Saudi Arabia and Rwanda. In Press Freedom, Italy ranks between Botswana and Senegal. additional source: I'm Italian.

lbeltrame 6y ago
This is different from the recorded cases, after all it's a "perception" index. > In recent experience, I remember the World Expo Milan fair in 2015 I don't think the trials have been finished yet.
- dailygrind___ 6y ago
  True, but there's 0% chance corruption wasn't a factor. For what it's worth, the former president of Lombardy, in charge till 2013, has been condemned for 9 years for criminal activities. It's just how the system works.
  - lbeltrame 6y ago
    I will wait for the final decision, personally, as I think presumption of innocence still holds, even if I might disagree at a personal or political level with the accused.
    - afiori 6y ago
      In this context presumption of innocence is different from presuming the crime did not happen. Presumption of innocence could be that even if you 100% sure corruption was pervasive you keep in mind that the people on trial might actually be innocent scapegoats.
      - lbeltrame 6y ago
        That's also something the sentence at the end of the trial may cover: "not having carried out the fact" versus "the fact has not occurred". At this point, there is neither indication (nor a guilt sentence, either).
SergeAx 6y ago
I was in Messina Strait several times by sailboat and ferry traffic was significant every time. So there's a demand regardless the state of road network. IMO bridge would lower ferry traffic thus low-grade ship fuel consumption and overall ecology impact, wouldn't it?
ghego1 6y ago
The examples you mentioned are a tiny number of public works, that do not represent anything but what they are: very well known isolated cases. Every year Italian public administrations award thousands of contracts, only a small fraction of which are actually the result of corruption based on judicial data. A different problem is the perception of the level of corruption, which in Italy is very high no matter the data. I'm actually not surprised that you are Italian indeed.
- Udik 6y ago
  > the perception of the level of corruption, which in Italy is very high no matter the data. A solid belief that everyone else is committing serious crimes is essential to rationalize your own small frauds. I have little doubt that Italians are so eager to point the finger at corruption because it helps them come to terms with their constant disregard of rules. (I speak as an Italian)
YeGoblynQueenne 6y ago
Well, at least in Italy people get arrested for corrpution. At first I thought you were just joking. (Note: I'm Greek) Edit: Actually, I live in the UK. People over here know how to do corruption the right way and our, Mediterrannean, pathetic excuses for corrupt politicians should really study their ways. In the UK, it's not that there is no corruption, it's that everybody who is anybody is buddy-buddies with everyone else who is anybody (say, they went to the same college, i.e. Eton), so they don't call it corruption, just "doing business". For a recent example, look up the recent non-scandal about giving an 840k quid contract to the buddy-buddies of Mike and Domz: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jul/10/firm-with-links-to-gove-and-cummings-given-covid-19-contract-without-open-tender https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jul/10/firm-with-l... So let's not all take too big a dump on us poor, corrupt Southern Europeans, because we may have invented the art (in the ancient times of old) of handing public monies to our cronies but Western Europeans turned it into a science (in modern times and not so modern times).
- brnt 6y ago
  Naming matters. (As a northern European,) My impression is that since we won't use that word to describe things here it's easier to look away. What's corruption in Greece and Italy is called a budget overrun or government support in the Netherlands and Germany, and you won't convince many Dutch/Germans to see it any other way. After all, we don't do corruption 'round these here parts.
  - Udik 6y ago
    The Italians' perception of pervasive corruption also works as a very handy excuse for further misbehaviour. Given the three corners of the so called "triangle of fraud"- motivation, opportunity and rationalisation- a widespread knowledge that everyone is corrupt provides a very handy rationalisation (everyone is screwing me, so it's my right to do the same to the others whenever the smallest opportunity arises).
riffraff 6y ago
unless you have data saying "all" is wrong. You can say "many" and it will be true, and people won't argue. The "corruption perception index" is based on this sort of thing: people say "Italy is the most corrupt place in the world!" and have no data or knowledge to compare.

nelaboras 6y ago

Not data per she but an official point of critique by the EU > The business environment is improving, but strengthening Italy’s public administration, justice system and anti-corruption framework remains a challenge. The digitisation of public services is progressing. Further efforts are needed to improve public employment, especially at management level. Weak administrative capacity is diminishing the public administration’s ability to invest and carry out policy or enforcement tasks that affect businesses such as market surveillance. In this regard, a comprehensive strategy to strengthen it is missing. Inefficiencies in public procurement also remain often unaddressed. Despite recent improvements, the length of civil trials remains among the highest in the EU. Recent reforms are starting to bear fruit and an enabling law to streamline the civil procedure is under discussion. However, to reduce trial length, there is still ample room to ensure more efficient management of cases and limit unfounded appeals. The anti-corruption framework was strengthened recently, also through the anti-corruption law of January 2019. However, it needs to be completed. Indeed, no regulation sanctions conflict of interest for elected public officials, embezzlement in the private sector remains only partly criminalised, and provisions against lobbying do not apply to members of government and parliament. Moreover, the low efficiency of criminal justice in appeals continues preventing prosecuting corruption effectively. A reform of the criminal procedure and appeal system is still pending. Search for corruption or justice in this document: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?qid=1584543810241&uri=CELEX%3A52020SC0511 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?qid=15845438...