5 ms·

> Jolly good show by the Brits to standby the people of Hong Kong Having a new source of immigration when you have just screwed yourself over in attracting Eur

> Jolly good show by the Brits to standby the people of Hong Kong Having a new source of immigration when you have just screwed yourself over in attracting European immigrantes due to Brexit is common sense rather than altruism.

thaumasiotes 6y ago
> Having a new source of immigration when you have just screwed yourself over in attracting European immigrantes due to Brexit is common sense rather than altruism. Immigration is not actually something you need to have.
- Waterfall 6y ago
  This is a fact that is hated by many people for some reason. There birthrate of Japan is considered low, but they are growing still and the homogeneous society has social harmony, with none of the ills of multiculturalism. It's a trade-off for immigration boosting economies in the short term they don't think is worth it.
  - trianglem 6y ago
    None of the benefits of multiculturalism either.
    - Waterfall 6y ago
      What do you define as the benefits?
      - trianglem 6y ago
        Living with and being able to interact with different cultures? That’s one of the main reasons I love the USA.
  - rurounijones 6y ago
    > There birthrate of Japan is considered low, but they are growing still I don't know where you are getting your information that the population of Japan is still growing. Japan's population is already declining. http://www.stat.go.jp/english/data/handbook/pdf/2017all.pdf http://www.stat.go.jp/english/data/handbook/pdf/2017all.pdf "Statistical Handbook of Japan" Table 2.2 https://www.populationpyramid.net/japan/2020/ https://www.populationpyramid.net/japan/2020/ ( https://www.populationpyramid.net/sources https://www.populationpyramid.net/sources ) https://www.worldometers.info/demographics/japan-demographics/ https://www.worldometers.info/demographics/japan-demographic... https://qz.com/1295721/the-japanese-population-is-shrinking-faster-than-every-other-big-country/ https://qz.com/1295721/the-japanese-population-is-shrinking-... https://www.nippon.com/en/japan-data/h00705/ https://www.nippon.com/en/japan-data/h00705/ "Japan’s Population Falls for Ninth Straight Year" https://www.ft.com/content/29d594fa-5cf2-11e9-9dde-7aedca0a081a https://www.ft.com/content/29d594fa-5cf2-11e9-9dde-7aedca0a0... "Japan’s population decline accelerates despite record immigration"
    - Waterfall 6y ago
      https://japan-forward.com/mythbusters-foreign-reporting-on-the-japanese-population-and-birth-rate-reaches-a-new-low/ https://japan-forward.com/mythbusters-foreign-reporting-on-t...
      - rurounijones 6y ago
        My first link is the official statistics compiled by the Japanese government itself (Statistics Bureau, MIC; Ministry of Health, Labour and Welfare; Geospatial Information Authority of Japan) and their projections. Even your link confirms that the population is in decline, just not as quicky as some reporters say. "While the fertility rate declined from 4.32 in 1949 to a low of 1.26 in 2005, the total population was increasing >>until 2011<< " "Japan’s Population Decline Not as Rapid as Media Portrays". I just noticed I could replace 2017 with 2019 in the official statistics link and did so, resulting in http://www.stat.go.jp/english/data/handbook/pdf/2019all.pdf http://www.stat.go.jp/english/data/handbook/pdf/2019all.pdf It is the same Table 2.2 That still shows a decline and projected decline. I am not seeing anything that backs up your assertion that > birthrate of Japan is considered low, but they are growing still If you still want to assert this as fact then you are going to have to provide a reason that the Japanese government's own statistics and projections over at least the last 5 or so years are incorrect and what should be used as authoritative data instead.
- trianglem 6y ago
  Yes you do. The paradigm has changed and now you must. In fact it’s abhorrent to have a homogenous population.
  - bmn__ 6y ago
    That's not fact, but opinion.
    - trianglem 6y ago
      Obviously
  - eloff 6y ago
    Immigration is a must if you don't have a high enough birthrate to sustain economic growth - because we don't know how to manage a declining economy - and why would you accept that when you have the tool of immigration? Not because there is any fundamental need for a racially or culturally diverse population. Those things seem like they would be beneficial in my opinion, but not required.
    - trianglem 6y ago
      I think we are getting to a point in the world where being able to deal with different cultures could start to be seen as a requirement, similar to knowing English in a global world. I feel like Indians already benefit from this which is why they seem to be making very effective managers.
- DanBC 6y ago
  > Immigration is not actually something you need to have. It's something the UK needs to have. We don't have enough qualified doctors, nurses, AHPs, civil engineers, mechanical engineers, electrical engineers, electronic engineers, (any engineers), architects, etc etc etc.
  - thaumasiotes 6y ago
    The steady state for this kind of thing is a very long credentialing process that mostly serves to constrict [word choice is deliberate] entry into the field(s). In the absence of immigration, assuming the void you describe were perceived, I would expect the UK to accelerate the qualification process for doctors, engineers, nurses, AHPs, engineers, architects, etc., without much affecting the quality of the doctoring / nursing / engineering that got done. This is, for example, how people were trained to understand spoken Japanese when that became important in World War II. The first attempt involved approaching universities with Japanese programs, who all solemnly declared that learning to understand Japanese was a deliberate process involving multiple years of study. The second attempt involved a course developed for the purpose, not by the universities, that turned out functioning translators in six months.
    - DanBC 6y ago
      > without much affecting the quality of the doctoring / nursing In England "registered nurse" is a protected title. The requirements for being a registered nurse have changed over time. You used to be able to qualify then register, or work then register without getting the qualification. So we have a natural experiment with older nurses in England. Some are qualified and registered, some are unqualified and registered. We see from research that the qualification helps with patient safety. I hope you can see that there are significant differences between learning a language and treating patients.
      - thaumasiotes 6y ago
        > So we have a natural experiment with older nurses in England. Some are qualified and registered, some are unqualified and registered. We see from research that the qualification helps with patient safety. As described, you see from research that nurses with the qualification are better than nurses in the same cohort without. This is confounded all kinds of different ways; it doesn't come close to establishing that the qualification helped. (The most obvious confound, though -- say, do nurses with a bachelor's degree outperform nurses with "some college"? -- does tend to suggest that, in the absence of immigration, overall quality levels will go down if the average quality of immigrants is higher than the average quality of natives.) > I hope you can see that there are significant differences between learning a language and treating patients. Of course, but I don't see that those differences are relevant here.

thaumasiotes 6y ago

> Having a new source of immigration when you have just screwed yourself over in attracting European immigrantes due to Brexit is common sense rather than altruism. Immigration is not actually something you need to have.

Waterfall 6y ago
This is a fact that is hated by many people for some reason. There birthrate of Japan is considered low, but they are growing still and the homogeneous society has social harmony, with none of the ills of multiculturalism. It's a trade-off for immigration boosting economies in the short term they don't think is worth it.
- trianglem 6y ago
  None of the benefits of multiculturalism either.
  - Waterfall 6y ago
    What do you define as the benefits?
    - trianglem 6y ago
      Living with and being able to interact with different cultures? That’s one of the main reasons I love the USA.
- rurounijones 6y ago
  > There birthrate of Japan is considered low, but they are growing still I don't know where you are getting your information that the population of Japan is still growing. Japan's population is already declining. http://www.stat.go.jp/english/data/handbook/pdf/2017all.pdf http://www.stat.go.jp/english/data/handbook/pdf/2017all.pdf "Statistical Handbook of Japan" Table 2.2 https://www.populationpyramid.net/japan/2020/ https://www.populationpyramid.net/japan/2020/ ( https://www.populationpyramid.net/sources https://www.populationpyramid.net/sources ) https://www.worldometers.info/demographics/japan-demographics/ https://www.worldometers.info/demographics/japan-demographic... https://qz.com/1295721/the-japanese-population-is-shrinking-faster-than-every-other-big-country/ https://qz.com/1295721/the-japanese-population-is-shrinking-... https://www.nippon.com/en/japan-data/h00705/ https://www.nippon.com/en/japan-data/h00705/ "Japan’s Population Falls for Ninth Straight Year" https://www.ft.com/content/29d594fa-5cf2-11e9-9dde-7aedca0a081a https://www.ft.com/content/29d594fa-5cf2-11e9-9dde-7aedca0a0... "Japan’s population decline accelerates despite record immigration"
  - Waterfall 6y ago
    https://japan-forward.com/mythbusters-foreign-reporting-on-the-japanese-population-and-birth-rate-reaches-a-new-low/ https://japan-forward.com/mythbusters-foreign-reporting-on-t...
    - rurounijones 6y ago
      My first link is the official statistics compiled by the Japanese government itself (Statistics Bureau, MIC; Ministry of Health, Labour and Welfare; Geospatial Information Authority of Japan) and their projections. Even your link confirms that the population is in decline, just not as quicky as some reporters say. "While the fertility rate declined from 4.32 in 1949 to a low of 1.26 in 2005, the total population was increasing >>until 2011<< " "Japan’s Population Decline Not as Rapid as Media Portrays". I just noticed I could replace 2017 with 2019 in the official statistics link and did so, resulting in http://www.stat.go.jp/english/data/handbook/pdf/2019all.pdf http://www.stat.go.jp/english/data/handbook/pdf/2019all.pdf It is the same Table 2.2 That still shows a decline and projected decline. I am not seeing anything that backs up your assertion that > birthrate of Japan is considered low, but they are growing still If you still want to assert this as fact then you are going to have to provide a reason that the Japanese government's own statistics and projections over at least the last 5 or so years are incorrect and what should be used as authoritative data instead.
trianglem 6y ago
Yes you do. The paradigm has changed and now you must. In fact it’s abhorrent to have a homogenous population.
- bmn__ 6y ago
  That's not fact, but opinion.
  - trianglem 6y ago
    Obviously
- eloff 6y ago
  Immigration is a must if you don't have a high enough birthrate to sustain economic growth - because we don't know how to manage a declining economy - and why would you accept that when you have the tool of immigration? Not because there is any fundamental need for a racially or culturally diverse population. Those things seem like they would be beneficial in my opinion, but not required.
  - trianglem 6y ago
    I think we are getting to a point in the world where being able to deal with different cultures could start to be seen as a requirement, similar to knowing English in a global world. I feel like Indians already benefit from this which is why they seem to be making very effective managers.
DanBC 6y ago
> Immigration is not actually something you need to have. It's something the UK needs to have. We don't have enough qualified doctors, nurses, AHPs, civil engineers, mechanical engineers, electrical engineers, electronic engineers, (any engineers), architects, etc etc etc.
- thaumasiotes 6y ago
  The steady state for this kind of thing is a very long credentialing process that mostly serves to constrict [word choice is deliberate] entry into the field(s). In the absence of immigration, assuming the void you describe were perceived, I would expect the UK to accelerate the qualification process for doctors, engineers, nurses, AHPs, engineers, architects, etc., without much affecting the quality of the doctoring / nursing / engineering that got done. This is, for example, how people were trained to understand spoken Japanese when that became important in World War II. The first attempt involved approaching universities with Japanese programs, who all solemnly declared that learning to understand Japanese was a deliberate process involving multiple years of study. The second attempt involved a course developed for the purpose, not by the universities, that turned out functioning translators in six months.
  - DanBC 6y ago
    > without much affecting the quality of the doctoring / nursing In England "registered nurse" is a protected title. The requirements for being a registered nurse have changed over time. You used to be able to qualify then register, or work then register without getting the qualification. So we have a natural experiment with older nurses in England. Some are qualified and registered, some are unqualified and registered. We see from research that the qualification helps with patient safety. I hope you can see that there are significant differences between learning a language and treating patients.
    - thaumasiotes 6y ago
      > So we have a natural experiment with older nurses in England. Some are qualified and registered, some are unqualified and registered. We see from research that the qualification helps with patient safety. As described, you see from research that nurses with the qualification are better than nurses in the same cohort without. This is confounded all kinds of different ways; it doesn't come close to establishing that the qualification helped. (The most obvious confound, though -- say, do nurses with a bachelor's degree outperform nurses with "some college"? -- does tend to suggest that, in the absence of immigration, overall quality levels will go down if the average quality of immigrants is higher than the average quality of natives.) > I hope you can see that there are significant differences between learning a language and treating patients. Of course, but I don't see that those differences are relevant here.