5 ms·

I think you're misunderstanding the comparison to Python. I am saying Rust will eat the world in the space that it fits in, which is still relatively large, in

by daenz 6y ago

I think you're misunderstanding the comparison to Python. I am saying Rust will eat the world in the space that it fits in, which is still relatively large, in the same way that Python did, in the space that Python fits in. Not that Rust will take over very high level languages too.

tptacek 6y ago
The reason I was moved to comment is that I think it's actually not that large a space (the one that Rust plays in). Instead, I think it's just that the applications in that space loom large in our consciousness, because we all use and pay attention to kernels and browsers. And I expect the space of applications "languages like Python" play in to grow over time, and Rust's to shrink, not just because computers will get faster but because the runtimes for those languages will get cleverer (see, for instance, what's happening with Javascript).
- TylerE 6y ago
  I think nim is the really interesting one to watch here... Compared to rust it offers, say, 99% of the performance and 70% of the safety while really being almost as easy as python.
  - entha_saava 6y ago
    But do you have a HackerNews spamming taskforce that mentions nim in every comment?
    - nindalf 6y ago
      Please don’t comment like this. Snarky accusations like this are impossible to respond to and are against the HN guidelines.
- nilkn 6y ago
  I would actually like to make the exact opposite prediction. A generation of developers grew up on Python, Ruby, etc., rather than C, and they were all brought up on this notion that performance doesn't matter much anymore because computers keep getting faster. But the problems we're solving with computers keep getting harder (in terms of the amount of computation required). These days, I can comfortably state that I prefer Rust over Python, even for simple programs. I prefer it because the type system is much more useful than Python 3 with mypy, the performance is extraordinary out of the box, the language is often just as expressive, and I rarely have any actual issues with the borrow checker. I also prefer it because I've had far too many experiences with Python where supposedly performance didn't matter... until it did and Python was no longer appropriate. I think we're entering into a generation of languages where things like Rust are going to start really seriously displacing C++, and as more people learn them they're even going to start displacing supposedly easier languages. Right now, few folks are going to learn Rust as an alternative to Python. But once they're exposed to it for other work and realize how productive they are, there's just going to be less of a need to reach for Python over time.
  - tptacek 6y ago
    What is the thing happening in computing making the largest demands on compute performance? Data science and ML. And what's the lingua franca of data science and ML? Not even Java or Go, the managed compiled languages; no, it's Python.† You can see the phenomenon I'm talking about happen right now, in every HN thread where we push against the ocean trying to keep Electron from being a thing. What's going to happen first: Electron's runtime will become clever enough that its performance is tolerable even to nerds, or most Electron applications being rewritten in a language that forces programmers to manually manage memory? It's interesting, because Rust will probably be a part of the story that makes things like Electron tolerable! But the point isn't that Rust is a doomed language (it's not, it's going to be durably important), but rather that it's not going to be the language most programmers work in. † It's not pure Python, of course, but that's part of my point.
    - nilkn 6y ago
      > What is the thing happening in computing making the largest demands on compute performance? Data science and ML. And what's the lingua franca of data science and ML? Not Java or Go, the managed compiled languages; no, it's Python. While ML might be the most demanding area in terms of computation, it's also a very small part of what developers in general do. My claim/prediction is more based on the notion that everything is becoming more compute-intensive. Where I work, we've probably incurred many, many millions of dollars of expenses (primarily hardware) due to the choice to write a lot of software in scripting languages over the years. We made that choice because C++ was so unwieldy in comparison that we figured we'd end up spending the same amount on C++ but in different ways. If we were starting from scratch today, I doubt we'd use scripting languages like Python for hardly any of our software, because there are choices available now that just didn't exist in the past. I'm not saying there's no place for something like Python, nor am I saying existing Python stuff should be rewritten. I think Python is going to continue being an extremely popular and important language. My claim/prediction is more that in the future we'll increasingly see Python chosen less for completely greenfield projects because there are now options that are high-level, well-designed, and extremely fast, and at least in my experience that has a lot of business value that is going to be harder and harder to ignore over time as it becomes more obvious.

by daenz 6y ago

tptacek 6y ago

The reason I was moved to comment is that I think it's actually not that large a space (the one that Rust plays in). Instead, I think it's just that the applications in that space loom large in our consciousness, because we all use and pay attention to kernels and browsers. And I expect the space of applications "languages like Python" play in to grow over time, and Rust's to shrink, not just because computers will get faster but because the runtimes for those languages will get cleverer (see, for instance, what's happening with Javascript).

TylerE 6y ago
I think nim is the really interesting one to watch here... Compared to rust it offers, say, 99% of the performance and 70% of the safety while really being almost as easy as python.
- entha_saava 6y ago
  But do you have a HackerNews spamming taskforce that mentions nim in every comment?
  - nindalf 6y ago
    Please don’t comment like this. Snarky accusations like this are impossible to respond to and are against the HN guidelines.
nilkn 6y ago
I would actually like to make the exact opposite prediction. A generation of developers grew up on Python, Ruby, etc., rather than C, and they were all brought up on this notion that performance doesn't matter much anymore because computers keep getting faster. But the problems we're solving with computers keep getting harder (in terms of the amount of computation required). These days, I can comfortably state that I prefer Rust over Python, even for simple programs. I prefer it because the type system is much more useful than Python 3 with mypy, the performance is extraordinary out of the box, the language is often just as expressive, and I rarely have any actual issues with the borrow checker. I also prefer it because I've had far too many experiences with Python where supposedly performance didn't matter... until it did and Python was no longer appropriate. I think we're entering into a generation of languages where things like Rust are going to start really seriously displacing C++, and as more people learn them they're even going to start displacing supposedly easier languages. Right now, few folks are going to learn Rust as an alternative to Python. But once they're exposed to it for other work and realize how productive they are, there's just going to be less of a need to reach for Python over time.
- tptacek 6y ago
  What is the thing happening in computing making the largest demands on compute performance? Data science and ML. And what's the lingua franca of data science and ML? Not even Java or Go, the managed compiled languages; no, it's Python.† You can see the phenomenon I'm talking about happen right now, in every HN thread where we push against the ocean trying to keep Electron from being a thing. What's going to happen first: Electron's runtime will become clever enough that its performance is tolerable even to nerds, or most Electron applications being rewritten in a language that forces programmers to manually manage memory? It's interesting, because Rust will probably be a part of the story that makes things like Electron tolerable! But the point isn't that Rust is a doomed language (it's not, it's going to be durably important), but rather that it's not going to be the language most programmers work in. † It's not pure Python, of course, but that's part of my point.
  - nilkn 6y ago
    > What is the thing happening in computing making the largest demands on compute performance? Data science and ML. And what's the lingua franca of data science and ML? Not Java or Go, the managed compiled languages; no, it's Python. While ML might be the most demanding area in terms of computation, it's also a very small part of what developers in general do. My claim/prediction is more based on the notion that everything is becoming more compute-intensive. Where I work, we've probably incurred many, many millions of dollars of expenses (primarily hardware) due to the choice to write a lot of software in scripting languages over the years. We made that choice because C++ was so unwieldy in comparison that we figured we'd end up spending the same amount on C++ but in different ways. If we were starting from scratch today, I doubt we'd use scripting languages like Python for hardly any of our software, because there are choices available now that just didn't exist in the past. I'm not saying there's no place for something like Python, nor am I saying existing Python stuff should be rewritten. I think Python is going to continue being an extremely popular and important language. My claim/prediction is more that in the future we'll increasingly see Python chosen less for completely greenfield projects because there are now options that are high-level, well-designed, and extremely fast, and at least in my experience that has a lot of business value that is going to be harder and harder to ignore over time as it becomes more obvious.