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People "can" do that but that's not what either the commenter or Apple is doing. And it's a package deal anyway. As long as PWAs do not provide viable competit

People "can" do that but that's not what either the commenter or Apple is doing. And it's a package deal anyway. As long as PWAs do not provide viable competition to App Store on iOS, you can criticize App Store till you're blue in the face and nothing will change. So if you choose to force native UI holyness on others, at least take the responsibility for what else this brings as well.

soraminazuki 6y ago
> People "can" do that but that's not what either the commenter or Apple is doing. It’s not even remotely fair to pretend that HN commenters and Apple share the exact same interests. It’s not anyone besides Apple’s fault that they are doing what they’re doing in the AppStore. > So if you choose to force native UI holyness on others, at least take the responsibility for what else this brings as well. Again, what responsibility? The idea that anyone who dislikes PWA has to take “responsibility” for Apple’s actions is plain ridiculous to begin with. Another thing I’d like to mention is that there are also reasons for disliking PWAs other than worshipping “UI holiness.” Honestly, I don’t care as much for that. The main issue I have with the pro-PWA agenda is that it’s pushing for browsers to expand access to their underlying platforms. If browsers keep on doing this, we’d have to give websites the same trust we give to apps when we install them on our devices. This would mean the end of browsing as we know it because we’d have to think twice before choosing to click on a link.
- nikitaga 6y ago
  There's a difference between merely "disliking" something as a personal preference and insisting that other people should not have the things you dislike. Neither the commenter I responded to nor Apple are simply "disliking" PWAs. Apple is not allowing PWAs to bolster their monopolistic moat, and the commenter is supporting Apple's decision to not allow _other people_ to build & use PWAs on iOS, seemingly just because they personally prefer native UX. Both of those are far beyond just "disliking". This might seem like mere semantics about what "disliking" is, but while simply having personal preferences is fine, taking _actions_ that affect _other people_ or publicly expressing support for such actions necessarily comes with some moral responsibility for those actions I think. Perhaps some puny PWAs and their market effects aren't important enough for people to consider that, but the principle is all the same I would think.
  - soraminazuki 6y ago
    > This might seem like mere semantics about what "disliking" is Yes it is. Because you have cherry-picked a single word out of my whole argument to make your point. I dedicated an entire paragraph describing the undesired consequences of going the PWA route and you refused to acknowledge it, claiming it's only the "UX" people are taking issues with.
    - nikitaga 6y ago
      My original comment was in response to a particular commenter who did in fact imply that UI conventions were the reason. I even asked a question to clarify if that was the case. Snarky it was, but still a question. You have your own reason to not want PWAs, that's fine. Your reason is not the reason I'm protesting. Not including your reason in my question does not make it a false dichotomy. I never stated that UI conventions were the _only_ reason to dislike PWAs, it was simply the only reason the commenter implied. If _you_ think promoting walled gardens and Apple's monopolistic power is less of a problem than expanding browsers' scope of functionality, I disagree, but that's not what I came here to argue about, that doesn't have anything to do with my original comment that you have an issue with.

soraminazuki 6y ago

> People "can" do that but that's not what either the commenter or Apple is doing. It’s not even remotely fair to pretend that HN commenters and Apple share the exact same interests. It’s not anyone besides Apple’s fault that they are doing what they’re doing in the AppStore. > So if you choose to force native UI holyness on others, at least take the responsibility for what else this brings as well. Again, what responsibility? The idea that anyone who dislikes PWA has to take “responsibility” for Apple’s actions is plain ridiculous to begin with. Another thing I’d like to mention is that there are also reasons for disliking PWAs other than worshipping “UI holiness.” Honestly, I don’t care as much for that. The main issue I have with the pro-PWA agenda is that it’s pushing for browsers to expand access to their underlying platforms. If browsers keep on doing this, we’d have to give websites the same trust we give to apps when we install them on our devices. This would mean the end of browsing as we know it because we’d have to think twice before choosing to click on a link.

nikitaga 6y ago
There's a difference between merely "disliking" something as a personal preference and insisting that other people should not have the things you dislike. Neither the commenter I responded to nor Apple are simply "disliking" PWAs. Apple is not allowing PWAs to bolster their monopolistic moat, and the commenter is supporting Apple's decision to not allow _other people_ to build & use PWAs on iOS, seemingly just because they personally prefer native UX. Both of those are far beyond just "disliking". This might seem like mere semantics about what "disliking" is, but while simply having personal preferences is fine, taking _actions_ that affect _other people_ or publicly expressing support for such actions necessarily comes with some moral responsibility for those actions I think. Perhaps some puny PWAs and their market effects aren't important enough for people to consider that, but the principle is all the same I would think.
- soraminazuki 6y ago
  > This might seem like mere semantics about what "disliking" is Yes it is. Because you have cherry-picked a single word out of my whole argument to make your point. I dedicated an entire paragraph describing the undesired consequences of going the PWA route and you refused to acknowledge it, claiming it's only the "UX" people are taking issues with.
  - nikitaga 6y ago
    My original comment was in response to a particular commenter who did in fact imply that UI conventions were the reason. I even asked a question to clarify if that was the case. Snarky it was, but still a question. You have your own reason to not want PWAs, that's fine. Your reason is not the reason I'm protesting. Not including your reason in my question does not make it a false dichotomy. I never stated that UI conventions were the _only_ reason to dislike PWAs, it was simply the only reason the commenter implied. If _you_ think promoting walled gardens and Apple's monopolistic power is less of a problem than expanding browsers' scope of functionality, I disagree, but that's not what I came here to argue about, that doesn't have anything to do with my original comment that you have an issue with.