7 ms·

Missing in the article is the cost of the MOSE system which projected to cost 5.5 Billion Euros! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOSE_Project#Projections https:/

by esturk 6y ago

Missing in the article is the cost of the MOSE system which projected to cost 5.5 Billion Euros! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOSE_Project#Projections https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOSE_Project#Projections

arcticbull 6y ago
I suspect building a new Venice would cost a few bucks more.
- toomuchtodo 6y ago
  Letting Venice go is also an option. Going to happen to a lot of low lying geographies as sea levels rise and mitigation becomes unaffordable. Hard decisions ahead about what’s worth saving. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/07/180703190745.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/07/180703190745.h... (“Rising sea levels could cost the world $14 trillion a year by 2100”) For comparison, the EU’s budget is around €150B/year.
  - ceejayoz 6y ago
    The EU's budget is only a tiny part of public spending of the EU's member states, though, as they each handle their own military, welfare, etc. spending individually. It's more like DC's budget than the US Federal budget in magnitude/importance.
    - toomuchtodo 6y ago
      That’s a fair point. Looking at the EU as a whole, I would argue it doesn’t have the resources to spend on enormous climate mitigation capital projects consistently with most of its countries dependent on a handful of economic engines (primarily France and Germany with the UK leaving), compounded by a rapidly aging workforce turning into pensioners who will be competing against those capital projects for fiscal support.
      - pmontra 6y ago
        EU Contributors and Beneficiaries 2018 https://www.statista.com/chart/18794/net-contributors-to-eu-budget/ https://www.statista.com/chart/18794/net-contributors-to-eu-...
  - EricE 6y ago
    Please. Every 20 years the predictions that ocean levels are going to rise by x feet happen and decades later they haven't moved anywhere close.
    - amanaplanacanal 6y ago
      Haven't seen that. Can you link some of those predictions?
    - mhh__ 6y ago
      [Citation needed]?
      - CameronNemo 6y ago
        Not backing up the parent skeptic comment, but here is a source I found for sea level rise: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/global-warming/sea-level-rise/ https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/global-warmin...
    - mikepurvis 6y ago
      Looks like some real actual rise to me: https://www.globalchange.gov/browse/indicators/global-sea-level-rise https://www.globalchange.gov/browse/indicators/global-sea-le...
    - soamv 6y ago
      No, sea levels have risen as predicted; see for example https://blogs.egu.eu/divisions/gd/2017/09/13/modern-day-sea-level-rise/ https://blogs.egu.eu/divisions/gd/2017/09/13/modern-day-sea-...
  - aaron695 6y ago
    "Humans Can Survive Underwater Alarming media stories that twist the facts about rising sea levels are dangerous because they scare people unnecessarily and push policymakers toward excessively expensive measures to reduce greenhouse-gas emissions. The real solution is to lift the world’s poorest out of poverty and protect them with simple infrastructure." https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/rising-sea-levels-media-alarmism-by-bjorn-lomborg-2019-11 https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/rising-sea-leve...
    - Udik 6y ago
      Archived: http://archive.is/smovR http://archive.is/smovR
- sandworm101 6y ago
  Not really. Venice is sinking faster today due to seas rising, but the city has been sinking into the mud since day one. In the past buildings were regularly demolished and new ones built atop the rubble. At some point in recent history we decided to stop doing that, to lock all the buildings in place and "protect" them. This phenomena is not unique to Venice. Whether it is sea level rise in Venice, height limits in Paris, or widespread "heritage" status for anything over a few decades old, all over the world we protect buildings and architecture. This means sacrificing the needs of greater cities and the people who live in those cities. Let's protect all the Venices of the world, but treat them as what they are: museums or theme parks, not places people actually live and work. Venice already has the boat rides and is talking about a gate price (a tourist day fee). Next will come the wrist bands. Then the mascots and cotton candy. How many of the tourists on those giant cruise ships actually get off the boat? Do many of them that just look at Venice from their cabins? That might make Venice the world's largest public art exhibition.
  - arcticbull 6y ago
    I'm not sure even letting the sea reclaim it would be cheaper, the environmental impact alone might well require either a costly dismantle operation or just walling it in where the waste can't get out.
  - II2II 6y ago
    The city that I live in faces similar issues, even though it is young by international standards, and those issues exhibit themselves in very peculiar ways. If we were talking about a building that is actively maintained and played a significant role in events, I can understand the desire to preserve it. Yet, more often than not, the buildings are decayed due to neglect and very few people actually care about the building until it is about to be torn down. Worse yet, the structure has frequently been altered to the point where it is no longer of architectural interest. So yes, this is a concern from the perspective of the greater needs of cities. Which is why I was puzzled by the opposition due to the environmental impact. On the other hand, I suspect that these attitudes stem from something other than a desire for preservation. It may sound noble to talk about the greater needs of cities, yet some mighty nasty projects have been undertaken in the name of redevelopment. For some people this brings up extreme cases of forced removal, serving the needs of special interests, or simply creating inhumane environments.
- Razengan 6y ago
  They could move it to Mars: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aria_(manga) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aria_(manga) https://aria.fandom.com/wiki/Neo-Venezia https://aria.fandom.com/wiki/Neo-Venezia

by esturk 6y ago

arcticbull 6y ago

I suspect building a new Venice would cost a few bucks more.

toomuchtodo 6y ago
Letting Venice go is also an option. Going to happen to a lot of low lying geographies as sea levels rise and mitigation becomes unaffordable. Hard decisions ahead about what’s worth saving. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/07/180703190745.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/07/180703190745.h... (“Rising sea levels could cost the world $14 trillion a year by 2100”) For comparison, the EU’s budget is around €150B/year.
- ceejayoz 6y ago
  The EU's budget is only a tiny part of public spending of the EU's member states, though, as they each handle their own military, welfare, etc. spending individually. It's more like DC's budget than the US Federal budget in magnitude/importance.
  - toomuchtodo 6y ago
    That’s a fair point. Looking at the EU as a whole, I would argue it doesn’t have the resources to spend on enormous climate mitigation capital projects consistently with most of its countries dependent on a handful of economic engines (primarily France and Germany with the UK leaving), compounded by a rapidly aging workforce turning into pensioners who will be competing against those capital projects for fiscal support.
    - pmontra 6y ago
      EU Contributors and Beneficiaries 2018 https://www.statista.com/chart/18794/net-contributors-to-eu-budget/ https://www.statista.com/chart/18794/net-contributors-to-eu-...
- EricE 6y ago
  Please. Every 20 years the predictions that ocean levels are going to rise by x feet happen and decades later they haven't moved anywhere close.
  - amanaplanacanal 6y ago
    Haven't seen that. Can you link some of those predictions?
  - mhh__ 6y ago
    [Citation needed]?
    - CameronNemo 6y ago
      Not backing up the parent skeptic comment, but here is a source I found for sea level rise: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/global-warming/sea-level-rise/ https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/global-warmin...
  - mikepurvis 6y ago
    Looks like some real actual rise to me: https://www.globalchange.gov/browse/indicators/global-sea-level-rise https://www.globalchange.gov/browse/indicators/global-sea-le...
  - soamv 6y ago
    No, sea levels have risen as predicted; see for example https://blogs.egu.eu/divisions/gd/2017/09/13/modern-day-sea-level-rise/ https://blogs.egu.eu/divisions/gd/2017/09/13/modern-day-sea-...
- aaron695 6y ago
  "Humans Can Survive Underwater Alarming media stories that twist the facts about rising sea levels are dangerous because they scare people unnecessarily and push policymakers toward excessively expensive measures to reduce greenhouse-gas emissions. The real solution is to lift the world’s poorest out of poverty and protect them with simple infrastructure." https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/rising-sea-levels-media-alarmism-by-bjorn-lomborg-2019-11 https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/rising-sea-leve...
  - Udik 6y ago
    Archived: http://archive.is/smovR http://archive.is/smovR
sandworm101 6y ago
Not really. Venice is sinking faster today due to seas rising, but the city has been sinking into the mud since day one. In the past buildings were regularly demolished and new ones built atop the rubble. At some point in recent history we decided to stop doing that, to lock all the buildings in place and "protect" them. This phenomena is not unique to Venice. Whether it is sea level rise in Venice, height limits in Paris, or widespread "heritage" status for anything over a few decades old, all over the world we protect buildings and architecture. This means sacrificing the needs of greater cities and the people who live in those cities. Let's protect all the Venices of the world, but treat them as what they are: museums or theme parks, not places people actually live and work. Venice already has the boat rides and is talking about a gate price (a tourist day fee). Next will come the wrist bands. Then the mascots and cotton candy. How many of the tourists on those giant cruise ships actually get off the boat? Do many of them that just look at Venice from their cabins? That might make Venice the world's largest public art exhibition.
- arcticbull 6y ago
  I'm not sure even letting the sea reclaim it would be cheaper, the environmental impact alone might well require either a costly dismantle operation or just walling it in where the waste can't get out.
- II2II 6y ago
  The city that I live in faces similar issues, even though it is young by international standards, and those issues exhibit themselves in very peculiar ways. If we were talking about a building that is actively maintained and played a significant role in events, I can understand the desire to preserve it. Yet, more often than not, the buildings are decayed due to neglect and very few people actually care about the building until it is about to be torn down. Worse yet, the structure has frequently been altered to the point where it is no longer of architectural interest. So yes, this is a concern from the perspective of the greater needs of cities. Which is why I was puzzled by the opposition due to the environmental impact. On the other hand, I suspect that these attitudes stem from something other than a desire for preservation. It may sound noble to talk about the greater needs of cities, yet some mighty nasty projects have been undertaken in the name of redevelopment. For some people this brings up extreme cases of forced removal, serving the needs of special interests, or simply creating inhumane environments.
Razengan 6y ago
They could move it to Mars: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aria_(manga) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aria_(manga) https://aria.fandom.com/wiki/Neo-Venezia https://aria.fandom.com/wiki/Neo-Venezia