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> It's trying to make someone feel emotional pain in order to force them to do something. But the "something" in this case is "not kill people". I'm sorry, I

> It's trying to make someone feel emotional pain in order to force them to do something. But the "something" in this case is "not kill people". I'm sorry, I can't understand that absolutism. If I can save a million people by making some innocent babies cry from an immunization shot, I should be able to make their parents angry by shaming them into wearing a mask or washing their hands, right?

chrisseaton 6y ago
> But the "something" in this case is "not kill people". Yes it's a worthwhile cause to speak up for! > I'm sorry, I can't understand that absolutism. I don't believe in 'the ends justify the means' except in some limited cases such as an imminent existential threat. > If I can save a million people by making some innocent babies cry from an immunization shot, I should be able to make their parents angry by shaming them into wearing a mask or washing their hands, right? I think you should use your logic to campaign for legislation or regulation, not try to force people by applying pain.
- Klinky 6y ago
  >I think you should use your logic to campaign for legislation or regulation, not try to force people by applying pain. There are already legal mandates around mask wearing and there are many who still refuse.
  - chrisseaton 6y ago
    So call the police or begin a private prosecution if a law is being violated. If you are in imminent actual physical danger with no means to extract yourself from the situation, then use self defence. But if a law isn't being violated, and you're free to leave, then mind your own business. Feel free to lobby for new legislation or regulation. In whatever situation: don't try to force your will by applying mental health pain. That's truly a 'dark side' solution to any problem.
    - Klinky 6y ago
      >So call the police or begin a private prosecution if a law is being violated. You could certainly call the police on someone violating the mask mandate, but wouldn't calling the police also result in "mental health pain" for the perpetrator? Calling the police immediately would be extreme, and more likely someone is going to ask staff to intervene and ask the perpetrator to put on a damn mask, but that too will cause shame for the perpetrator. All you're doing is is outsourcing who is causing the shame, but you're still the originating source of it.
      - chrisseaton 6y ago
        The police don't use 'shame' against people - they apply the procedure of the law.
        throwanem 6y ago
        That's an evasion. The police use violence, threatened or actual. If I have to choose between that and being shamed, I'll choose being shamed every time.
        chrisseaton 6y ago
        I think they just issue a fine for things like violating lockdown and mask laws.
        throwanem 6y ago
        Yes, and what do you imagine happens eventually if you don't pay it? Or happens right away if you argue about it, or if they decide to feel threatened by anything you say or do?
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
        6y ago
- Hasu 6y ago
  > I think you should use your logic to campaign for legislation or regulation, not try to force people by applying pain. Campaigning for legislation or regulation is trying to force people through the use of the government's monopoly on physical violence. How is that less harmful than expressing negative judgment and hoping that someone feels sufficiently bad about being judged that they change their actions? Your argument seems to be that making someone feel bad is worse than physically harming them.

chrisseaton 6y ago

> But the "something" in this case is "not kill people". Yes it's a worthwhile cause to speak up for! > I'm sorry, I can't understand that absolutism. I don't believe in 'the ends justify the means' except in some limited cases such as an imminent existential threat. > If I can save a million people by making some innocent babies cry from an immunization shot, I should be able to make their parents angry by shaming them into wearing a mask or washing their hands, right? I think you should use your logic to campaign for legislation or regulation, not try to force people by applying pain.

Klinky 6y ago
>I think you should use your logic to campaign for legislation or regulation, not try to force people by applying pain. There are already legal mandates around mask wearing and there are many who still refuse.
- chrisseaton 6y ago
  So call the police or begin a private prosecution if a law is being violated. If you are in imminent actual physical danger with no means to extract yourself from the situation, then use self defence. But if a law isn't being violated, and you're free to leave, then mind your own business. Feel free to lobby for new legislation or regulation. In whatever situation: don't try to force your will by applying mental health pain. That's truly a 'dark side' solution to any problem.
  - Klinky 6y ago
    >So call the police or begin a private prosecution if a law is being violated. You could certainly call the police on someone violating the mask mandate, but wouldn't calling the police also result in "mental health pain" for the perpetrator? Calling the police immediately would be extreme, and more likely someone is going to ask staff to intervene and ask the perpetrator to put on a damn mask, but that too will cause shame for the perpetrator. All you're doing is is outsourcing who is causing the shame, but you're still the originating source of it.
    - chrisseaton 6y ago
      The police don't use 'shame' against people - they apply the procedure of the law.
      - throwanem 6y ago
        That's an evasion. The police use violence, threatened or actual. If I have to choose between that and being shamed, I'll choose being shamed every time.
        chrisseaton 6y ago
        I think they just issue a fine for things like violating lockdown and mask laws.
        throwanem 6y ago
        Yes, and what do you imagine happens eventually if you don't pay it? Or happens right away if you argue about it, or if they decide to feel threatened by anything you say or do?
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
        6y ago
Hasu 6y ago
> I think you should use your logic to campaign for legislation or regulation, not try to force people by applying pain. Campaigning for legislation or regulation is trying to force people through the use of the government's monopoly on physical violence. How is that less harmful than expressing negative judgment and hoping that someone feels sufficiently bad about being judged that they change their actions? Your argument seems to be that making someone feel bad is worse than physically harming them.