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How do you virtualize Linux on an Intel Mac without it being terrible? Docker has been essentially broken for years. I’m actually looking forward to the ARM Mac

by baddox 6y ago

How do you virtualize Linux on an Intel Mac without it being terrible? Docker has been essentially broken for years. I’m actually looking forward to the ARM Macs because Apple mentioned they’re cooperating with Docker which I suspect could mean Docker will actually be more usable for virtualizing x86 Linux than it is now.

SigmundA 6y ago
Parallels?
RotsiserMho 6y ago
I've had good luck with VMware Fusion.
- vetinari 6y ago
  WMware is the only kext that I've seen to cause kernel panic on a Mac.
apple4ever 6y ago
VirtualBox is free.
- jpitz 6y ago
  With important caveats. https://www.virtualbox.org/wiki/Licensing_FAQ#:~:text=The%20VirtualBox%20Extension%20Pack%20is,uses%20restricted%20by%20the%20PUEL https://www.virtualbox.org/wiki/Licensing_FAQ#:~:text=The%20....
ghaff 6y ago
I'm not sure I understand that comment. Docker isn't virtualization at least as the term is normally used (of a full OS running in a virtual machine). It's containerization and, to the degree it's terrible (I haven't used it much), it may be related to the fact that MacOS is based on BSD and not Linux. Big Sur apparently has native Mac virtualization for, initially, x86 although I'm unclear what the underlying tech and a query or two at the time of the original announcement didn't yield any results. So that may improve Linux virtualization. As for ARM, virtualization is not emulation. There's going to be Rosetta 2. But my understanding is that you shouldn't expect x86 Linux to run on Mac ARM using virtualization, Docker, or anything else. (Apple demoed an ARM build of Linux running in a VM on ARM at WWDC.)
- vetinari 6y ago
  On a Mac, Docker runs a Linux VM and the containers are run inside this VM. On an ARM-based Mac, I would expect an Linux-on-ARM VM and then ARM-based containers, images for which might take a while to appear.
  - ghaff 6y ago
    OK. I get that. (Docker can also run natively on MacOS today which is what I assumed was being discussed. Docker presumably runs just as well in a Linux VM as Linux native other than any VM performance issues today and the parent was complaining about Docker on a Mac.) But, yes, Docker can also run in a Linux on x86 VM on, well pretty much anything today, and will presumably at some point be able to run in a Linux on ARM VM in the future.
    - vetinari 6y ago
      > Docker can also run natively on MacOS today which is what I assumed was being discussed. It is. The "native" Docker.app is an Hypervisor.framework virtual machine and an 8 GB Docker.raw image in your homedir. The client utilities are native, and communicate with a docker service running inside the VM. It definitely doesn't run containers under Darwin kernel.
      - ghaff 6y ago
        Ah. Thanks. I installed it and used it a few years ago but haven't for ages and obviously forgot the details.
devNoise 6y ago
My understanding is that docker on the mac uses some sort of vm to run the containers. Docker Toolbox use VirtualBox and Docker Desktop uses HyperKit. https://docs.docker.com/docker-for-mac/docker-toolbox/ https://docs.docker.com/docker-for-mac/docker-toolbox/
_ph_ 6y ago
I use VMWare Fusion for my day to day work and my experiences couldn't be better. Running it fullscreen is like running Linux on your machine, with the advantages of virtualisation, e.g. being able to suspend your VM.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- lostlogin 6y ago
  I accidentally went full screen on an Ubuntu 20.04 VM running on a Nuc that I opened from Fusion. I only installed it to cobble together some instructions for usage for someone who needed help. Full screen from Fusion makes it really nice. There is a tiny lag when using the trackpad and typing has a has a very very slight delay, but I was looking for flaws. It's really compelling. I can only imagine that having it in Fusion but on my machine would make it even better. I will be upping the resources it gets and trying again, as it's really nice.

by baddox 6y ago

SigmundA 6y ago

Parallels?

RotsiserMho 6y ago

I've had good luck with VMware Fusion.

vetinari 6y ago
WMware is the only kext that I've seen to cause kernel panic on a Mac.

apple4ever 6y ago

VirtualBox is free.

jpitz 6y ago
With important caveats. https://www.virtualbox.org/wiki/Licensing_FAQ#:~:text=The%20VirtualBox%20Extension%20Pack%20is,uses%20restricted%20by%20the%20PUEL https://www.virtualbox.org/wiki/Licensing_FAQ#:~:text=The%20....

ghaff 6y ago

I'm not sure I understand that comment. Docker isn't virtualization at least as the term is normally used (of a full OS running in a virtual machine). It's containerization and, to the degree it's terrible (I haven't used it much), it may be related to the fact that MacOS is based on BSD and not Linux. Big Sur apparently has native Mac virtualization for, initially, x86 although I'm unclear what the underlying tech and a query or two at the time of the original announcement didn't yield any results. So that may improve Linux virtualization. As for ARM, virtualization is not emulation. There's going to be Rosetta 2. But my understanding is that you shouldn't expect x86 Linux to run on Mac ARM using virtualization, Docker, or anything else. (Apple demoed an ARM build of Linux running in a VM on ARM at WWDC.)

vetinari 6y ago
On a Mac, Docker runs a Linux VM and the containers are run inside this VM. On an ARM-based Mac, I would expect an Linux-on-ARM VM and then ARM-based containers, images for which might take a while to appear.
- ghaff 6y ago
  OK. I get that. (Docker can also run natively on MacOS today which is what I assumed was being discussed. Docker presumably runs just as well in a Linux VM as Linux native other than any VM performance issues today and the parent was complaining about Docker on a Mac.) But, yes, Docker can also run in a Linux on x86 VM on, well pretty much anything today, and will presumably at some point be able to run in a Linux on ARM VM in the future.
  - vetinari 6y ago
    > Docker can also run natively on MacOS today which is what I assumed was being discussed. It is. The "native" Docker.app is an Hypervisor.framework virtual machine and an 8 GB Docker.raw image in your homedir. The client utilities are native, and communicate with a docker service running inside the VM. It definitely doesn't run containers under Darwin kernel.
    - ghaff 6y ago
      Ah. Thanks. I installed it and used it a few years ago but haven't for ages and obviously forgot the details.

devNoise 6y ago

My understanding is that docker on the mac uses some sort of vm to run the containers. Docker Toolbox use VirtualBox and Docker Desktop uses HyperKit. https://docs.docker.com/docker-for-mac/docker-toolbox/ https://docs.docker.com/docker-for-mac/docker-toolbox/

_ph_ 6y ago

I use VMWare Fusion for my day to day work and my experiences couldn't be better. Running it fullscreen is like running Linux on your machine, with the advantages of virtualisation, e.g. being able to suspend your VM.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
lostlogin 6y ago
I accidentally went full screen on an Ubuntu 20.04 VM running on a Nuc that I opened from Fusion. I only installed it to cobble together some instructions for usage for someone who needed help. Full screen from Fusion makes it really nice. There is a tiny lag when using the trackpad and typing has a has a very very slight delay, but I was looking for flaws. It's really compelling. I can only imagine that having it in Fusion but on my machine would make it even better. I will be upping the resources it gets and trying again, as it's really nice.