8 ms·

I'm pretty keen on buying one of the last Intel MBPs late this year or next year. First-generation Apple products are always buggier than the subsequent versio

I'm pretty keen on buying one of the last Intel MBPs late this year or next year. First-generation Apple products are always buggier than the subsequent versions, so even as a consumer I'd want to wait for second gen. More importantly, as a developer, I'm still deploying everything to Linux on Intel, so I value the ability to virtualize Linux without emulation. That said, I'm excited about the potential for ARM over time with Apple's performance trajectory, and if Apple holds onto developer mindshare and doesn't totally nerf Mac OS in the name of iOS parity, then there could be a strong halo effect pushing ARM servers and cloud hosting forward. I just don't want to be on that bleeding edge of architecture transition pain.

bdcravens 6y ago
> More importantly, as a developer, I'm still deploying everything to Linux on Intel, so I value the ability to virtualize Linux without emulation. Then why not just develop on Linux?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- dasil003 6y ago
  I was strongly considering it, given the touchbar and keyboard nonsense, but then they at least brought back the escape key and inverted arrows which was enough to keep me onboard. Native docker would be a strong draw, but the thing that has stopped me so far is that I have refined workflows and a handful of killer apps (eg. OmniFocus) that I don't want to retool.
- skwb 6y ago
  Some of us are not masochists at heart, and value the ability to switch between a GUI for my desktop things and a virtualized Linux image for development/testing.
  - freetime2 6y ago
    Of course you should use whatever works best for you, but I disagree with your characterization of Linux users as masochists at heart. I’m very much a person who values technology that “just works”. While my latest Ubuntu installation admittedly wasn’t quite as smooth as running macOS on Apple hardware, the gap has narrowed considerably. Especially for anyone who already possesses a fair amount of Linux experience from working with servers for work, and who sticks with known-compatible hardware, running a Linux desktop can be a delight.
    - wtallis 6y ago
      Linux on a desktop can be fine, depending on what you want out of that desktop experience. But Linux on a laptop still tends to be Sisyphean: by the time you get all the hardware features working correctly and with proper power management and with all the firmware bugs worked around, at least one of the hardware or the distro will be years out of date. The only way to be satisfied is to decide you didn't need that feature anyways, or didn't need that last hour of battery life.
      - freetime2 6y ago
        Out of curiosity, does this still hold true if you buy one of the System76 / Dell / Lenovo laptops with Linux pre-installed? I’m currently using a desktop, so don’t have any recent experience with this, but my assumption is the experience has also improved quite a bit on these OEM Linux laptops.
        livueta 6y ago
        It's better but not perfect. If you tried Linux on commodity laptops a decade ago, you'd frequently run into awful hardware issues. There's less of that now with the OEM laptops (with some exceptions; looking at you, Killer wlan chipsets!). UI jank is also reduced but not eliminated. Even Pop!/DE Ubuntu have a fair number of rough edges - not so much that you're constantly tearing your hair out, but there's definite room for improvement. Personally, I live with it because I also think Windows and OSX have regressed in usability and stability, but I'd be a liar if I didn't mention all the time spent yelling at things like DPI scaling w/ hardware dock-attached monitors. e: also, expect to do some manual power tuning if you want anything close to battery life parity.
- jasode 6y ago
  >Then why not just develop on Linux? I wasn't the one that downvoted you but to give a typical reason why some programmers don't run Linux on the laptop/desktop even though they deploy to Linux: they need to run critical software that only runs on Windows or macOS. (My previous comments with examples of this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20312066 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20312066, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20312336 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20312336) I also write software for Linux but it's backend processing utilities deployed to Linux servers and not client GUI software with GTK/Qt meant for Ubuntu desktops. In that situation, it's more reliable and less hassle for me to run macOS or Windows as the 1st-class desktop and then run Linux & gcc in a vm .... rather than the reverse of running Ubuntu desktop and trying to run Windows in Wine/vm and then finding out something is incompatible.
  - skwb 6y ago
    I completely agree with this sentiment. I remember one I was a TA for an introductory graduate medical informatics class, and a couple of the students insisted on trying to make a "PowerPoint" in LibreOffice (presumably because he has Linux installed on his laptop). I specifically told them that I would be grading a non-insignificant on their communication and presentation abilities. But they kept on insisting on using LibreOffice. The content of what they were presenting was so utterly distracted by the poor formatting, I had to specifically mention it in my grading. Frankly, I have never seen an aesthetically pleasing presentation in LibreOffice, and it get into so many conflicts/broken formatting when trying to migrate to PowerPoint. The reality is that if you're going to be interfacing with non-technical people (managers, customers, exec level), they all expect a certain amount of polish that comes from presentations. I'm willing to dunk on MBA types that drop buzzwords all day, but sometime you need to be flexible with regard for what tools you use for your job.
    - eisa01 6y ago
      Uh, LibreOffice and PowerPoint are just tools You can easily create crappy presentations in PowerPoint You were quite unreasonable in my opinion, and failed to communicate why they would need to use PPT I’m saying this as a person with PowerPoint as the second most important tool at my workplace, after Excel
- _ph_ 6y ago
  I am running Linux in a VM on the Mac, as I do need software, which is not available on Linux. But with the Linux VM running full-screen, I miss nothing from running Linux natively, but I can switch in an instant to the Mac desktop with all its niceties. Also, hardware support is no problem, as it is handled by the host system.
- jon-wood 6y ago
  In my case, because none of the auditing software required by work will run under Linux. I got away with it for a few years because I started before we had an actual IT department, but eventually they caught up with me and I had to swap my Linux machine for a MacBook, I could have had Windows, and possibly would have done if it were today.
- flywheel 6y ago
  The year of "Linux on the Desktop" may actually be coming if enough developers want to keep Intel and apple finally drops support for x86 with their software updates (and they absolutely will at some point). Dual-booting between Linux for dev and Windows for video gaming could be a compelling use case for a lot of developers. I doubt Apple ARM systems will see much in the way of video gaming. I absolutely would go for Intel/Linux before I follow Apple down the ARM road just because they want to make more money and have more lock-in.
- jayd16 6y ago
  I work in games so the answer for me is Unity editor support on Linux is poor so I can't, although I'd like to. Have most distros gotten solid high-dpi support yet?
- dehrmann 6y ago
  I can't believe Apple's the company making the strongest case for 2020 being the year of desktop Linux, right now.
- AtomicOrbital 6y ago
  anyone who develops to target linux servers should certainly be running linux on their laptop ... occasionally I fire up a osx laptop just to see how it compares to linux and after years of developing on a linux laptop the differences are stark ... I encourage any doubters to install linux on a laptop and see for themselves
baddox 6y ago
How do you virtualize Linux on an Intel Mac without it being terrible? Docker has been essentially broken for years. I’m actually looking forward to the ARM Macs because Apple mentioned they’re cooperating with Docker which I suspect could mean Docker will actually be more usable for virtualizing x86 Linux than it is now.
- SigmundA 6y ago
  Parallels?
- RotsiserMho 6y ago
  I've had good luck with VMware Fusion.
  - vetinari 6y ago
    WMware is the only kext that I've seen to cause kernel panic on a Mac.
- apple4ever 6y ago
  VirtualBox is free.
  - jpitz 6y ago
    With important caveats. https://www.virtualbox.org/wiki/Licensing_FAQ#:~:text=The%20VirtualBox%20Extension%20Pack%20is,uses%20restricted%20by%20the%20PUEL https://www.virtualbox.org/wiki/Licensing_FAQ#:~:text=The%20....
- ghaff 6y ago
  I'm not sure I understand that comment. Docker isn't virtualization at least as the term is normally used (of a full OS running in a virtual machine). It's containerization and, to the degree it's terrible (I haven't used it much), it may be related to the fact that MacOS is based on BSD and not Linux. Big Sur apparently has native Mac virtualization for, initially, x86 although I'm unclear what the underlying tech and a query or two at the time of the original announcement didn't yield any results. So that may improve Linux virtualization. As for ARM, virtualization is not emulation. There's going to be Rosetta 2. But my understanding is that you shouldn't expect x86 Linux to run on Mac ARM using virtualization, Docker, or anything else. (Apple demoed an ARM build of Linux running in a VM on ARM at WWDC.)
simonh 6y ago
Same here, I have a late 2014 27" which I can probably get about £1k for on eBay which is 1/3 of the cost of a new one of the spec I'm after. I want something I can run Linux on under Virtualbox and boot camp into Windows for gaming. A few days ago some results showed up on Geekbench for an unknown Mac running the latest gen i9 Intel cpu and delivery times for 27" machine just went to September, so we can expect a refresh soon. For a pure Mac experience I'm sure the new ARM machines will be absolutely fine. My first Mac was a first generation intel machine and it was fantastic, so they're perfectly capable of nailing a transition like this. I'm just in a small minority with some specific reasons to prefer an Intel cpu. Long term it doesn't concern me either, there's no way I can predict what my needs will be in another 6 or 8 years when my new box starts getting long in the tooth. I'll worry about it then.

bdcravens 6y ago

> More importantly, as a developer, I'm still deploying everything to Linux on Intel, so I value the ability to virtualize Linux without emulation. Then why not just develop on Linux?

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
dasil003 6y ago
I was strongly considering it, given the touchbar and keyboard nonsense, but then they at least brought back the escape key and inverted arrows which was enough to keep me onboard. Native docker would be a strong draw, but the thing that has stopped me so far is that I have refined workflows and a handful of killer apps (eg. OmniFocus) that I don't want to retool.
skwb 6y ago
Some of us are not masochists at heart, and value the ability to switch between a GUI for my desktop things and a virtualized Linux image for development/testing.
- freetime2 6y ago
  Of course you should use whatever works best for you, but I disagree with your characterization of Linux users as masochists at heart. I’m very much a person who values technology that “just works”. While my latest Ubuntu installation admittedly wasn’t quite as smooth as running macOS on Apple hardware, the gap has narrowed considerably. Especially for anyone who already possesses a fair amount of Linux experience from working with servers for work, and who sticks with known-compatible hardware, running a Linux desktop can be a delight.
  - wtallis 6y ago
    Linux on a desktop can be fine, depending on what you want out of that desktop experience. But Linux on a laptop still tends to be Sisyphean: by the time you get all the hardware features working correctly and with proper power management and with all the firmware bugs worked around, at least one of the hardware or the distro will be years out of date. The only way to be satisfied is to decide you didn't need that feature anyways, or didn't need that last hour of battery life.
    - freetime2 6y ago
      Out of curiosity, does this still hold true if you buy one of the System76 / Dell / Lenovo laptops with Linux pre-installed? I’m currently using a desktop, so don’t have any recent experience with this, but my assumption is the experience has also improved quite a bit on these OEM Linux laptops.
      - livueta 6y ago
        It's better but not perfect. If you tried Linux on commodity laptops a decade ago, you'd frequently run into awful hardware issues. There's less of that now with the OEM laptops (with some exceptions; looking at you, Killer wlan chipsets!). UI jank is also reduced but not eliminated. Even Pop!/DE Ubuntu have a fair number of rough edges - not so much that you're constantly tearing your hair out, but there's definite room for improvement. Personally, I live with it because I also think Windows and OSX have regressed in usability and stability, but I'd be a liar if I didn't mention all the time spent yelling at things like DPI scaling w/ hardware dock-attached monitors. e: also, expect to do some manual power tuning if you want anything close to battery life parity.
jasode 6y ago
>Then why not just develop on Linux? I wasn't the one that downvoted you but to give a typical reason why some programmers don't run Linux on the laptop/desktop even though they deploy to Linux: they need to run critical software that only runs on Windows or macOS. (My previous comments with examples of this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20312066 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20312066, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20312336 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20312336) I also write software for Linux but it's backend processing utilities deployed to Linux servers and not client GUI software with GTK/Qt meant for Ubuntu desktops. In that situation, it's more reliable and less hassle for me to run macOS or Windows as the 1st-class desktop and then run Linux & gcc in a vm .... rather than the reverse of running Ubuntu desktop and trying to run Windows in Wine/vm and then finding out something is incompatible.
- skwb 6y ago
  I completely agree with this sentiment. I remember one I was a TA for an introductory graduate medical informatics class, and a couple of the students insisted on trying to make a "PowerPoint" in LibreOffice (presumably because he has Linux installed on his laptop). I specifically told them that I would be grading a non-insignificant on their communication and presentation abilities. But they kept on insisting on using LibreOffice. The content of what they were presenting was so utterly distracted by the poor formatting, I had to specifically mention it in my grading. Frankly, I have never seen an aesthetically pleasing presentation in LibreOffice, and it get into so many conflicts/broken formatting when trying to migrate to PowerPoint. The reality is that if you're going to be interfacing with non-technical people (managers, customers, exec level), they all expect a certain amount of polish that comes from presentations. I'm willing to dunk on MBA types that drop buzzwords all day, but sometime you need to be flexible with regard for what tools you use for your job.
  - eisa01 6y ago
    Uh, LibreOffice and PowerPoint are just tools You can easily create crappy presentations in PowerPoint You were quite unreasonable in my opinion, and failed to communicate why they would need to use PPT I’m saying this as a person with PowerPoint as the second most important tool at my workplace, after Excel
_ph_ 6y ago
I am running Linux in a VM on the Mac, as I do need software, which is not available on Linux. But with the Linux VM running full-screen, I miss nothing from running Linux natively, but I can switch in an instant to the Mac desktop with all its niceties. Also, hardware support is no problem, as it is handled by the host system.
jon-wood 6y ago
In my case, because none of the auditing software required by work will run under Linux. I got away with it for a few years because I started before we had an actual IT department, but eventually they caught up with me and I had to swap my Linux machine for a MacBook, I could have had Windows, and possibly would have done if it were today.
flywheel 6y ago
The year of "Linux on the Desktop" may actually be coming if enough developers want to keep Intel and apple finally drops support for x86 with their software updates (and they absolutely will at some point). Dual-booting between Linux for dev and Windows for video gaming could be a compelling use case for a lot of developers. I doubt Apple ARM systems will see much in the way of video gaming. I absolutely would go for Intel/Linux before I follow Apple down the ARM road just because they want to make more money and have more lock-in.
jayd16 6y ago
I work in games so the answer for me is Unity editor support on Linux is poor so I can't, although I'd like to. Have most distros gotten solid high-dpi support yet?
dehrmann 6y ago
I can't believe Apple's the company making the strongest case for 2020 being the year of desktop Linux, right now.
AtomicOrbital 6y ago
anyone who develops to target linux servers should certainly be running linux on their laptop ... occasionally I fire up a osx laptop just to see how it compares to linux and after years of developing on a linux laptop the differences are stark ... I encourage any doubters to install linux on a laptop and see for themselves

baddox 6y ago

How do you virtualize Linux on an Intel Mac without it being terrible? Docker has been essentially broken for years. I’m actually looking forward to the ARM Macs because Apple mentioned they’re cooperating with Docker which I suspect could mean Docker will actually be more usable for virtualizing x86 Linux than it is now.

SigmundA 6y ago
Parallels?
RotsiserMho 6y ago
I've had good luck with VMware Fusion.
- vetinari 6y ago
  WMware is the only kext that I've seen to cause kernel panic on a Mac.
apple4ever 6y ago
VirtualBox is free.
- jpitz 6y ago
  With important caveats. https://www.virtualbox.org/wiki/Licensing_FAQ#:~:text=The%20VirtualBox%20Extension%20Pack%20is,uses%20restricted%20by%20the%20PUEL https://www.virtualbox.org/wiki/Licensing_FAQ#:~:text=The%20....
ghaff 6y ago
I'm not sure I understand that comment. Docker isn't virtualization at least as the term is normally used (of a full OS running in a virtual machine). It's containerization and, to the degree it's terrible (I haven't used it much), it may be related to the fact that MacOS is based on BSD and not Linux. Big Sur apparently has native Mac virtualization for, initially, x86 although I'm unclear what the underlying tech and a query or two at the time of the original announcement didn't yield any results. So that may improve Linux virtualization. As for ARM, virtualization is not emulation. There's going to be Rosetta 2. But my understanding is that you shouldn't expect x86 Linux to run on Mac ARM using virtualization, Docker, or anything else. (Apple demoed an ARM build of Linux running in a VM on ARM at WWDC.)

simonh 6y ago

Same here, I have a late 2014 27" which I can probably get about £1k for on eBay which is 1/3 of the cost of a new one of the spec I'm after. I want something I can run Linux on under Virtualbox and boot camp into Windows for gaming. A few days ago some results showed up on Geekbench for an unknown Mac running the latest gen i9 Intel cpu and delivery times for 27" machine just went to September, so we can expect a refresh soon. For a pure Mac experience I'm sure the new ARM machines will be absolutely fine. My first Mac was a first generation intel machine and it was fantastic, so they're perfectly capable of nailing a transition like this. I'm just in a small minority with some specific reasons to prefer an Intel cpu. Long term it doesn't concern me either, there's no way I can predict what my needs will be in another 6 or 8 years when my new box starts getting long in the tooth. I'll worry about it then.