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The article seems to treat a PhD merely as a credential - maybe assuming that a person would be equally capable with or without it. Why? The whole point of a Ph

by bo1024 6y ago

The article seems to treat a PhD merely as a credential - maybe assuming that a person would be equally capable with or without it. Why? The whole point of a PhD in math is to learn to do effective research in math and there are almost no substitutes. This seems like being surprised that so many professional violinists took violin lessons. (I admit my bias here but still.)

hn_throwaway_99 6y ago
The same mindset occurs a lot in the software engineering world, and I think it's somewhat baffling and potentially dangerous. I find software engineering quite difficult, and I am relatively intelligent, studied computer science at top universities, and have decades of experience where I learned a ton. So I'm all for coding bootcamps, but we wouldn't expect someone who went to a violin bootcamp for 3 or 4 months to be able to play in an orchestra, but I don't think that's the standard message coming from these coding bootcamps (understandable, they have a biased motivation) or from higher ups in the tech industry at large (more problematic IMO).
- ludamad 6y ago
  "scratch the surface of programming, which nonetheless equips you for real world jobs" could possibly be fair to say about a bootcamp. It certainly filled a certain demand, although one has to wonder if better software won't just eat 4 month configuration++ bootcamps
  - seibelj 6y ago
    I think a better use of coding boot camps would be to go deep in a very specific DSL. Like learn how to do Salesforce or Excel programming deeply. A lot of companies actually need this to improve processes, and restricted environments reduce the cognitive load a novice needs to become productive.
AnHonestComment 6y ago
Many SDEs I know spend years working on mathematics (eg, implementing economic models) — and the job of being an SDE is being an applied type theorist. To me, your comment is the classic classism that engineers have nothing to contribute to science.
kkylin 6y ago
Exactly. Getting a PhD means 1. taking some advanced math classes 2. hanging around some like-minded people for a few years 3. solving a problem or two, big enough to add up to a dissertation 4. publish, with professional help on learning to write 5. getting teaching experience Except for the last item, all these are things every aspiring mathematician would need / want to do anyway. Now, not everyone wants to teach, and at some universities TAs are overburdened. But certainly not all, and I'd argue that teaching experience in a well-strucured programs can teach one a lot of useful communication skills. Working on your own means you can get #3. Not everyone needs #4, and you can get some of #1 online or from books (but harder to find people to talk to). So no, a PhD isn't necessary. But most of the things one would do to get a PhD certainly is useful. Full disclosure: FWIW I have a PhD and work as an academic mathematician.
mathattack 6y ago
I think you’re correct here. The author assumes you have the starting knowledge out of undergrad (or ability to self teach) and everything in grad school is sorting and signaling. My view of school is more nuanced. Both undergrad and grad have a mix of signaling, sorting and learning. Since the financial barrier to entry to solving math problems is low, the easy problems are solved. To solve the hard ones, you need several more years of post-undergrad coursework to get to the edges of the field, and several more being mentored on how to push the edges. It’s hard to get there without the more advanced guided tour that grad school provides.

by bo1024 6y ago

hn_throwaway_99 6y ago

The same mindset occurs a lot in the software engineering world, and I think it's somewhat baffling and potentially dangerous. I find software engineering quite difficult, and I am relatively intelligent, studied computer science at top universities, and have decades of experience where I learned a ton. So I'm all for coding bootcamps, but we wouldn't expect someone who went to a violin bootcamp for 3 or 4 months to be able to play in an orchestra, but I don't think that's the standard message coming from these coding bootcamps (understandable, they have a biased motivation) or from higher ups in the tech industry at large (more problematic IMO).

ludamad 6y ago
"scratch the surface of programming, which nonetheless equips you for real world jobs" could possibly be fair to say about a bootcamp. It certainly filled a certain demand, although one has to wonder if better software won't just eat 4 month configuration++ bootcamps
- seibelj 6y ago
  I think a better use of coding boot camps would be to go deep in a very specific DSL. Like learn how to do Salesforce or Excel programming deeply. A lot of companies actually need this to improve processes, and restricted environments reduce the cognitive load a novice needs to become productive.

AnHonestComment 6y ago

Many SDEs I know spend years working on mathematics (eg, implementing economic models) — and the job of being an SDE is being an applied type theorist. To me, your comment is the classic classism that engineers have nothing to contribute to science.

kkylin 6y ago

Exactly. Getting a PhD means 1. taking some advanced math classes 2. hanging around some like-minded people for a few years 3. solving a problem or two, big enough to add up to a dissertation 4. publish, with professional help on learning to write 5. getting teaching experience Except for the last item, all these are things every aspiring mathematician would need / want to do anyway. Now, not everyone wants to teach, and at some universities TAs are overburdened. But certainly not all, and I'd argue that teaching experience in a well-strucured programs can teach one a lot of useful communication skills. Working on your own means you can get #3. Not everyone needs #4, and you can get some of #1 online or from books (but harder to find people to talk to). So no, a PhD isn't necessary. But most of the things one would do to get a PhD certainly is useful. Full disclosure: FWIW I have a PhD and work as an academic mathematician.

mathattack 6y ago

I think you’re correct here. The author assumes you have the starting knowledge out of undergrad (or ability to self teach) and everything in grad school is sorting and signaling. My view of school is more nuanced. Both undergrad and grad have a mix of signaling, sorting and learning. Since the financial barrier to entry to solving math problems is low, the easy problems are solved. To solve the hard ones, you need several more years of post-undergrad coursework to get to the edges of the field, and several more being mentored on how to push the edges. It’s hard to get there without the more advanced guided tour that grad school provides.