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> Ah, one case out of how many elections? One prominent case that was _not_ caught by election officials and analytical measures. We have no way to tell how ma

> Ah, one case out of how many elections? One prominent case that was _not_ caught by election officials and analytical measures. We have no way to tell how many others didn't get caught because nobody challenged them and our general systems failed. I'm not arguing that it's a catastrophic failure of the election system. The point is that paper ballots aren't protecting you from manipulation. Had they not challenged the election, the fraud would've gone unnoticed. And, importantly, it doesn't require coordination, there's no huge conspiracy required for this kind of fraud (and this specific instance also wasn't discovered because one of the perpetrators "spilled the beans"), so "large conspiracies are impossible to pull of" doesn't really apply.

hef19898 6y ago
A quick Google search showed alleged voter fraud, always claimed by our right wing AfD. And every time these allegations were investigated, it turned out everything was in order. Last case 2019, Thüringen and Sachsen. So how many cases are there, in your opinion? EDIT: You do know, that there was no voter fraud involved? After an investigation and court rulings one year after the election?
- luckylion 6y ago
  Right, at that point we're getting into semantics. If the votes aren't counted correctly, and a group of people are doing it somewhat systematically, I consider that fraud. Given that they were students (and the overall result did not change dramatically), judges were lenient and basically said "mistakes happen, no hard feelings". I have little doubt that it would have been quite different, had the situation been reversed, but I don't care enough to argue about it with you.
  - hef19898 6y ago
    Man, courts mandated a full recount. The only mistake they found was 13 missing votes. Which the court deemed to be within expected margins (don't ask me, I have zero experience with that). The result was a lost seat for the AfD, and an election deemed legitimate. So no fraud whatsoever. And no, I have zero doubt the judges would have enforced a result that gave the AfD a seat at the expense of another party, if that was what the recounted result said. Only that it didn't. This was a legal question, one that was answered. What you or I deem fraud or not became irrelevant at that point.

hef19898 6y ago

A quick Google search showed alleged voter fraud, always claimed by our right wing AfD. And every time these allegations were investigated, it turned out everything was in order. Last case 2019, Thüringen and Sachsen. So how many cases are there, in your opinion? EDIT: You do know, that there was no voter fraud involved? After an investigation and court rulings one year after the election?

luckylion 6y ago
Right, at that point we're getting into semantics. If the votes aren't counted correctly, and a group of people are doing it somewhat systematically, I consider that fraud. Given that they were students (and the overall result did not change dramatically), judges were lenient and basically said "mistakes happen, no hard feelings". I have little doubt that it would have been quite different, had the situation been reversed, but I don't care enough to argue about it with you.
- hef19898 6y ago
  Man, courts mandated a full recount. The only mistake they found was 13 missing votes. Which the court deemed to be within expected margins (don't ask me, I have zero experience with that). The result was a lost seat for the AfD, and an election deemed legitimate. So no fraud whatsoever. And no, I have zero doubt the judges would have enforced a result that gave the AfD a seat at the expense of another party, if that was what the recounted result said. Only that it didn't. This was a legal question, one that was answered. What you or I deem fraud or not became irrelevant at that point.