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I bet it also tells you when the mail ballot someone swapped for yours was received.

Kednicma 6y ago
Oregonian here! My signature is on file with the state, and both an OCR system and a human look at my signature on the ballot to make sure it matches. Additionally, my ballot has a barcode on it and a security weave, so that a "counterfeit" ballot and envelope would have to have come from inside the ballot-production system; loss-prevention techniques can be used to track down any stolen envelopes. Finally, the attack would have to come from inside the postal system as well, because only post officers and voting officials touch my ballot. In my specific case, I can even drop my ballot directly at a ballot box and not have to post it. If you have any evidence of widespread voting fraud in Oregon, please show it. Otherwise, no, we're not interested in your attempts to denigrate a convenient and reliable voting system; it reeks of antidemocratic sentiment and I don't see why we should tolerate it.
- Fjolsvith 6y ago
  Lots of incidents to prevent me from feeling trusting enough, irregardless of your accusing insult: https://www.ktuu.com/content/news/Stolen-Vote-by-Mail-ballot-packages-found-damaged-and-wet-in-the-snow-477165303.html https://www.ktuu.com/content/news/Stolen-Vote-by-Mail-ballot... https://urbanmilwaukee.com/2020/04/08/city-calls-for-usps-investigation-into-missing-ballots/ https://urbanmilwaukee.com/2020/04/08/city-calls-for-usps-in... "Even in Oregon, where VBM processes and integration with the postal service are well-tuned, over 1,000 ballots were lost in a January 2010 election." - http://iiisci.org/Journal/CV$/sci/pdfs/HPA468KX.pdf http://iiisci.org/Journal/CV$/sci/pdfs/HPA468KX.pdf
  - Kednicma 6y ago
    Your first two links are for Alaska and Wisconsin. I'll agree that the latter is clearly not experiencing fair voting; their legislators need to step up and be better. The third, the survey, is quite interesting. It shows two problems: First, people are filling out other household members' ballots; and second, ballots get lost in the post, usually on the way out to voters. There's nothing that can be done about that first problem. Being pressured to vote in a certain way is as old as voting, as are laws against pressuring others. The survey claims about 5% of voters are so pressured in Oregon, which is a dreadful but realistic number. Worse, though, it says that about 2.5% of ballot signatures are forged. We could do better at detecting forged signatures, but since stylometry is already such an imprecise art, it's probably not great to rely further on signatures. Ultimately, though, forcing people to the polls doesn't solve this problem at all; it just hides the problem behind layers of people telling each other behind closed doors to vote in certain ways. Edit: Oh, right, and this survey's source doesn't work. They link to KVAL, a real news station in Eugene, but their link is dead and has never been seen by the Internet Archive. I have no problem believing that humans are so horrible to each other that the rate of voter intimidation is over 5%, but hard data would be nice. That second problem, though, where ballots are lost on the way to and from voters? That's easy to fix. Just have a notification system that tells voters when their ballot has been posted. And that brings us back to the top of the thread; in Oregon, one can sign up to get text notifications about ballots. Checking my phone, I have notifications going back to 2016, in pairs; the first message is along the lines of: > This is Multnomah County Elections, your ballot for the Month Year General Election has been sent, look for it soon in your mailbox! And the second is like: > This is Multnomah County Elections, your ballot for the Month Year General Election has been accepted and will be counted. If I don't receive my ballot within a few days after that first text, or I don't receive that second text within a few weeks of voting, then I know that something is wrong and I can go to the elections office to try again. This hasn't ever happened to me personally. Note that, because voting by mail takes place over several weeks, there is time to remediate missing ballots! I hope this was enlightening. And if you don't trust this system, then you can always go to pick up and hand-deliver your ballots or go to a poll. But on the whole, I'd just as much rather that you didn't vote in Oregon at all; if you don't live here, then politely leave us alone and let us vote in our preferred style.
    - Fjolsvith 6y ago
      > if you don't live here, then politely leave us alone and let us vote in our preferred style. I don't live there. However, since Oregon VBM topic was brought up in an international forum, I assumed (incorrectly by your standard) that it was open for discussion.
      - Kednicma 6y ago
        If you want discussion, then discuss things. So far, all you've done is make a couple snide remarks, one about how Oregonians must suffer so much voter fraud, and one about how Oregonians must not be fairly represented if they're not electing Republican governors; as well as throw some links into the mix and wait for others to try to figure out what you meant. You don't really seem interested in discussion, but in taking cheap shots at cultural practices of which you neither understand nor approve.
        Fjolsvith 6y ago
        At least I'm not taking cheap shots at people in the discussion. Edit: And furthermore, you still haven't satisfactorily addressed the concerns I expressed regarding VBM. Which is a topic of national concern right now.
    - Fjolsvith 6y ago
      And another case of mail-in voter fraud: https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/25/politics/new-jersey-attorney-general-announces-voting-fraud-charges/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/25/politics/new-jersey-attorney-...
      - Kednicma 6y ago
        Still not Oregon, although I'm absolutely tickled that you're so angry about this that you're still posting on the thread.
        Fjolsvith 6y ago
sxcurry 6y ago
That doesn't happen. There are a number of security measures including signature verification. There is little to no ballot fraud in Oregon.
- Fjolsvith 6y ago
  When a Republican is elected governor in Oregon, my mistrust of that system may evaporate.
  - anoncake 6y ago
    Do you have evidence that a fair election would result in a Republican being elected?
    - Fjolsvith 6y ago
      Not in Oregon.

Oregonian here! My signature is on file with the state, and both an OCR system and a human look at my signature on the ballot to make sure it matches. Additionally, my ballot has a barcode on it and a security weave, so that a "counterfeit" ballot and envelope would have to have come from inside the ballot-production system; loss-prevention techniques can be used to track down any stolen envelopes. Finally, the attack would have to come from inside the postal system as well, because only post officers and voting officials touch my ballot. In my specific case, I can even drop my ballot directly at a ballot box and not have to post it. If you have any evidence of widespread voting fraud in Oregon, please show it. Otherwise, no, we're not interested in your attempts to denigrate a convenient and reliable voting system; it reeks of antidemocratic sentiment and I don't see why we should tolerate it.

Fjolsvith 6y ago
Lots of incidents to prevent me from feeling trusting enough, irregardless of your accusing insult: https://www.ktuu.com/content/news/Stolen-Vote-by-Mail-ballot-packages-found-damaged-and-wet-in-the-snow-477165303.html https://www.ktuu.com/content/news/Stolen-Vote-by-Mail-ballot... https://urbanmilwaukee.com/2020/04/08/city-calls-for-usps-investigation-into-missing-ballots/ https://urbanmilwaukee.com/2020/04/08/city-calls-for-usps-in... "Even in Oregon, where VBM processes and integration with the postal service are well-tuned, over 1,000 ballots were lost in a January 2010 election." - http://iiisci.org/Journal/CV$/sci/pdfs/HPA468KX.pdf http://iiisci.org/Journal/CV$/sci/pdfs/HPA468KX.pdf
- Kednicma 6y ago
  Your first two links are for Alaska and Wisconsin. I'll agree that the latter is clearly not experiencing fair voting; their legislators need to step up and be better. The third, the survey, is quite interesting. It shows two problems: First, people are filling out other household members' ballots; and second, ballots get lost in the post, usually on the way out to voters. There's nothing that can be done about that first problem. Being pressured to vote in a certain way is as old as voting, as are laws against pressuring others. The survey claims about 5% of voters are so pressured in Oregon, which is a dreadful but realistic number. Worse, though, it says that about 2.5% of ballot signatures are forged. We could do better at detecting forged signatures, but since stylometry is already such an imprecise art, it's probably not great to rely further on signatures. Ultimately, though, forcing people to the polls doesn't solve this problem at all; it just hides the problem behind layers of people telling each other behind closed doors to vote in certain ways. Edit: Oh, right, and this survey's source doesn't work. They link to KVAL, a real news station in Eugene, but their link is dead and has never been seen by the Internet Archive. I have no problem believing that humans are so horrible to each other that the rate of voter intimidation is over 5%, but hard data would be nice. That second problem, though, where ballots are lost on the way to and from voters? That's easy to fix. Just have a notification system that tells voters when their ballot has been posted. And that brings us back to the top of the thread; in Oregon, one can sign up to get text notifications about ballots. Checking my phone, I have notifications going back to 2016, in pairs; the first message is along the lines of: > This is Multnomah County Elections, your ballot for the Month Year General Election has been sent, look for it soon in your mailbox! And the second is like: > This is Multnomah County Elections, your ballot for the Month Year General Election has been accepted and will be counted. If I don't receive my ballot within a few days after that first text, or I don't receive that second text within a few weeks of voting, then I know that something is wrong and I can go to the elections office to try again. This hasn't ever happened to me personally. Note that, because voting by mail takes place over several weeks, there is time to remediate missing ballots! I hope this was enlightening. And if you don't trust this system, then you can always go to pick up and hand-deliver your ballots or go to a poll. But on the whole, I'd just as much rather that you didn't vote in Oregon at all; if you don't live here, then politely leave us alone and let us vote in our preferred style.
  - Fjolsvith 6y ago
    > if you don't live here, then politely leave us alone and let us vote in our preferred style. I don't live there. However, since Oregon VBM topic was brought up in an international forum, I assumed (incorrectly by your standard) that it was open for discussion.
    - Kednicma 6y ago
      If you want discussion, then discuss things. So far, all you've done is make a couple snide remarks, one about how Oregonians must suffer so much voter fraud, and one about how Oregonians must not be fairly represented if they're not electing Republican governors; as well as throw some links into the mix and wait for others to try to figure out what you meant. You don't really seem interested in discussion, but in taking cheap shots at cultural practices of which you neither understand nor approve.
      - Fjolsvith 6y ago
        At least I'm not taking cheap shots at people in the discussion. Edit: And furthermore, you still haven't satisfactorily addressed the concerns I expressed regarding VBM. Which is a topic of national concern right now.
  - Fjolsvith 6y ago
    And another case of mail-in voter fraud: https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/25/politics/new-jersey-attorney-general-announces-voting-fraud-charges/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/25/politics/new-jersey-attorney-...
    - Kednicma 6y ago
      Still not Oregon, although I'm absolutely tickled that you're so angry about this that you're still posting on the thread.
      - Fjolsvith 6y ago

sxcurry 6y ago

That doesn't happen. There are a number of security measures including signature verification. There is little to no ballot fraud in Oregon.

Fjolsvith 6y ago
When a Republican is elected governor in Oregon, my mistrust of that system may evaporate.
- anoncake 6y ago
  Do you have evidence that a fair election would result in a Republican being elected?
  - Fjolsvith 6y ago
    Not in Oregon.