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> I'm not saying Google is incredible (my opinion is quite the contrary actually). However, I am saying Apple is holding the web back, in a fairly annoying way,

> I'm not saying Google is incredible (my opinion is quite the contrary actually). However, I am saying Apple is holding the web back, in a fairly annoying way, for developers. Right. Because Google, who dominates the entire web standards spectrum, is known for creating well thought-out, well-designed APIs that take into consideration concerns and criticism, and thinking long-term of the web as a whole. Oh wait, they don't. Up to and including the point where both Mozilla and Safari are saying they won't implement certain functionality because of glaring holes in the design, and Chrome not only shipping the features, but making them GA. Oh, and yes. Most of the "Safari is holding back web developers" talk is bullshit, of course. It actually should read "Chrome releases APIs at neck breaking speed with zero concerns for the future of the web." See web API counts in major browsers: https://web-confluence.appspot.com/#!/confluence https://web-confluence.appspot.com/#!/confluence

osrec 6y ago
Why, then, did it take safari so long to implement ServiceWorkers? I believe they were the last of major browsers to implement it. And they landed the feature more than 2 years after Firefox! Also, why was Safari's IndexedDB feature released nearly 4 years after the other major browsers? And when released it, why was it full of bugs that simple test cases would have caught? I don't want to fuel conspiracies, but the pattern is fairly obvious. Apple appears to resist progress in Web APIs.
- dmitriid 6y ago
  > Why, then, did it take safari so long to implement ServiceWorkers? > Also, why was Safari's IndexedDB feature released Priorities. Safari's team isn't as big as Chrome's. > but the pattern is fairly obvious. The only obvious pattern is the link I provided. And things like this: - Chrome releasing APIs even when other vendors are against: https://twitter.com/Rich_Harris/status/1220412711768666114 https://twitter.com/Rich_Harris/status/1220412711768666114 - Chrome sabotaging competitors with shady practices: http://archive.is/tgIH9 http://archive.is/tgIH9 and there are many many many more examples of this behaviour.
  - osrec 6y ago
    What about Firefox? Is Safari's team smaller than Firefox's as well? Looking at this page: https://webkit.org/team/ https://webkit.org/team/ and comparing it to https://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox/Team/whois https://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox/Team/whois would suggest otherwise. Do you have numbers from elsewhere to back up that claim? Btw, I'm not saying Google are right to power through with poorly designed APIs either, but when there is a standard in place, why Safari takes sooo long to implement it is perplexing (or perhaps just a rather obvious strategy).
    - dmitriid 6y ago
      > Is Safari's team smaller than Firefox's as well? Unknown > but when there is a standard in place, why Safari takes sooo long to implement it is perplexing Some standards are so bad, even Chrome ends up deprecating them (see Custom Elements v0). Or they just go out of favor (see HTML Imports). Or they are so poorly specified that even years after "becoming a standard" they have things like "this section is not specified yet" in their texts. And the status of these "standards" is often not above "Candidate Recommendation" (that is it is gathering implementation experience, and yes, that refers to Service Workers). BTW Service Workers were moved to Candidate Recommendation about half a year ago: https://github.com/w3c/ServiceWorker/issues/1460 https://github.com/w3c/ServiceWorker/issues/1460 ("Double check everyone is happy with v1 going to CR.") So yeah, I don't know what to say. Safari isn't chasing every API under the sun? Good for them. Web Devs assuming that whatever's in Chrome is the be all end all standards on the web? Bad for the web and for the devs. Apple possibly not prioritising Safari? Bad for the web as well.
soraminazuki 6y ago
> Up to and including the point where both Mozilla and Safari are saying they won't implement certain functionality because of glaring holes in the design, and Chrome not only shipping the features, but making them GA. I feel this is being dismissed by many people, but there's a lot of truth in this statement. Here's an example of this at play: https://twitter.com/Rich_Harris/status/1220412711768666114 https://twitter.com/Rich_Harris/status/1220412711768666114 Chrome devrels and cheerleaders pile on Safari and Firefox all the time for not adhering to Chrome's agenda and frame it as "holding the web back." But the true thing that holds the web back is a browser monoculture.

osrec 6y ago

Why, then, did it take safari so long to implement ServiceWorkers? I believe they were the last of major browsers to implement it. And they landed the feature more than 2 years after Firefox! Also, why was Safari's IndexedDB feature released nearly 4 years after the other major browsers? And when released it, why was it full of bugs that simple test cases would have caught? I don't want to fuel conspiracies, but the pattern is fairly obvious. Apple appears to resist progress in Web APIs.

dmitriid 6y ago
> Why, then, did it take safari so long to implement ServiceWorkers? > Also, why was Safari's IndexedDB feature released Priorities. Safari's team isn't as big as Chrome's. > but the pattern is fairly obvious. The only obvious pattern is the link I provided. And things like this: - Chrome releasing APIs even when other vendors are against: https://twitter.com/Rich_Harris/status/1220412711768666114 https://twitter.com/Rich_Harris/status/1220412711768666114 - Chrome sabotaging competitors with shady practices: http://archive.is/tgIH9 http://archive.is/tgIH9 and there are many many many more examples of this behaviour.
- osrec 6y ago
  What about Firefox? Is Safari's team smaller than Firefox's as well? Looking at this page: https://webkit.org/team/ https://webkit.org/team/ and comparing it to https://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox/Team/whois https://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox/Team/whois would suggest otherwise. Do you have numbers from elsewhere to back up that claim? Btw, I'm not saying Google are right to power through with poorly designed APIs either, but when there is a standard in place, why Safari takes sooo long to implement it is perplexing (or perhaps just a rather obvious strategy).
  - dmitriid 6y ago
    > Is Safari's team smaller than Firefox's as well? Unknown > but when there is a standard in place, why Safari takes sooo long to implement it is perplexing Some standards are so bad, even Chrome ends up deprecating them (see Custom Elements v0). Or they just go out of favor (see HTML Imports). Or they are so poorly specified that even years after "becoming a standard" they have things like "this section is not specified yet" in their texts. And the status of these "standards" is often not above "Candidate Recommendation" (that is it is gathering implementation experience, and yes, that refers to Service Workers). BTW Service Workers were moved to Candidate Recommendation about half a year ago: https://github.com/w3c/ServiceWorker/issues/1460 https://github.com/w3c/ServiceWorker/issues/1460 ("Double check everyone is happy with v1 going to CR.") So yeah, I don't know what to say. Safari isn't chasing every API under the sun? Good for them. Web Devs assuming that whatever's in Chrome is the be all end all standards on the web? Bad for the web and for the devs. Apple possibly not prioritising Safari? Bad for the web as well.

soraminazuki 6y ago

> Up to and including the point where both Mozilla and Safari are saying they won't implement certain functionality because of glaring holes in the design, and Chrome not only shipping the features, but making them GA. I feel this is being dismissed by many people, but there's a lot of truth in this statement. Here's an example of this at play: https://twitter.com/Rich_Harris/status/1220412711768666114 https://twitter.com/Rich_Harris/status/1220412711768666114 Chrome devrels and cheerleaders pile on Safari and Firefox all the time for not adhering to Chrome's agenda and frame it as "holding the web back." But the true thing that holds the web back is a browser monoculture.