5 ms·

Exactly this. I use one for these reasons, in descending order of practical concern: 1. I don't want to broadcast myself during a meeting when I'm not prepared

Exactly this. I use one for these reasons, in descending order of practical concern: 1. I don't want to broadcast myself during a meeting when I'm not prepared, or perhaps leave a meeting open by accident. 2. If a bad actor does access my camera, I won't necessarily notice the indicator light, especially if I'm not actively using the computer at that moment. 3. I don't trust the indicator light to be permanently unhackable.

jachee 6y ago
As long as you maintain physical possession of your machine, point 3 is moot, at least on Macs.
- ldoughty 6y ago
  See the several articles linked in this page about apple webcams/mics being turned on by hackers.... Apple is good, but they are not perfect
  - jilles 6y ago
    They are not, but these articles are for < 2008 Macs. On "newer" Macbooks it done by hardware.
  - acdha 6y ago
    You’re posting this late enough to have had time to see that those are all about hardware which is a decade old. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23796606 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23796606
    - not_really 6y ago
      Right, so as time progresses news comes out about said hardware being hacked. I think you've validated his point. 5 years from now we will see how today's cameras have been hacked.
      - acdha 6y ago
        This was a known weakness back then, not some amazing breakthrough, and unless the vendors are actively lying about the hardware there's no way for someone to “hack” the power connection without a soldering iron.
- iso947 6y ago
  I leave my laptop in my hotel room while I go out for dinner, so point 3 is valid.
  - jachee 6y ago
    If I'm going to dinner where I can't take my backpack, I put mine in the safe. Can recommend. Physical security > *.
    - Drdrdrq 6y ago
      The safe that hotel provided for you? Agree that it's better than nothing though.
      - iso947 6y ago
        Safe is Probably worse than leaving in your bag
  - pb7 6y ago
    You expect someone to take apart the fused display assembly and modify the intricate power pins to both the LED and camera while you’re having dinner? I hope you’re a billionaire with secrets because otherwise this is pure paranoia.
    - chli 6y ago
      What about replacing the laptop and just cloning the content. I wouldn't notice.
      - dwaite 6y ago
        The T2 chip in modern Macs is responsible for operating as the disk controller for the on-board flash, and encrypts the filesystem at rest. You could copy some data over live, but there are also non-exportable cryptographic keys in the Secure Enclave.
    - 6y ago
- happytoexplain 6y ago
  I don't trust their implementation of a hardware link that is both reliable and truly un-exposed to software because I don't have the expertise or time to interpret their implementation, and even if I did, I don't trust that nothing about it will become vulnerable in any MacBook model going forward into the future. I don't think point 3 is moot in any practical sense.
  - jachee 6y ago
    The only way to physically get electricity to the camera unit, to be able to get any data from it is to pass that electricity through the indicator LED. Multiple teardowns have confirmed that it's a hardware path that software cannot modify.
- hinkley 6y ago
  ... and of everything you will ever plug into the USB port on your machine, including cables.
  - jachee 6y ago
    How is any of that going to rewire the hard line electrical path?
mekster 6y ago
Right. And some apps like WebEx turn on the camera by default, which is insane but happens and until you click to turn it off, you're live. Also, if you're using an external display, then how are you supposed to notice the green light on the MacBook sitting next to the display? That Apple article is nonsense. I put a black tape over the camera and I know nothing including hacks can broadcast unintended scene. It's easy to remove the tape when I actually have to which isn't too often for me.
- OJFord 6y ago
  Tape? I bought 10 little plastic sliding cover things on Ali Express for <£2. Unless you're on a 100% China boycott (which I assume wouldn't permit a MacBook anyway) I don't see a reason not to use them. They're fine, permanent, had for 3 years and not fallen off or anything.
  - mulmen 6y ago
    I use tape because it was already in my kitchen junk drawer and I literally never use the webcam on my laptop. It’s only a threat. The sliding covers are fine but it’s just more effort to order one.
    - conductr 6y ago
      Post It flags for me!
      - stOneskull 6y ago
        stickers! i have the star wars death star over my camera.
- drusepth 6y ago
  >Right. And some apps like WebEx turn on the camera by default, which is insane but happens and until you click to turn it off, you're live. Not to mention apps that do it "right" like Hangouts that enable the camera for you to preview your video feed before you're actually live. Could be pretty confusing/concerning for someone who isn't used to an app (and when it broadcasts you or not) and sees the light come on. A cover takes that whole thought worry-pitfall out of the possibilities.
ccktlmazeltov 6y ago
I've actually been on calls when the person did not want to show their webcam (and I had never seen them face to face) and did not notice they were showing their webcam due to having several screens.
Kliment 6y ago
Same on all counts, though I went a step further and wired in a microminiature slide switch to completely power off the camera. That way applications see "no camera" unless I go out of my way to power it on. I painted the "on" side of the switch in retroreflective paint so I can see when it's on at a glance too, whether the camera is in use or not. This was on a thinkpad though, I doubt macos would tolerate a disappearing camera.
- def8cefe 6y ago
  Do you have pictures to share? Sounds cool.
  - Kliment 6y ago
    Sadly no pictures of the insides. I'll give you a description though. I cut a trace on the camera module (should have cut the cable instead on second thought) and soldered in two bits of enamel wire that go to a slide switch. Clipped a little bit of plastic off the lid so the switch was accessible, blind-drilled two tiny holes in the lid for the alignment pegs of the switch to go into, and glued it in place. I then did the painting with a very fine brush under a microscope. The wires are routed around the camera module and the switch is to the left of the camera, in order not to interfere with the little LED on the right of the camera that illuminates the work area. The outside looks like this (I didn't bother cleaning up the cut-off plastic edge): https://imgur.com/a/UpB1dJn https://imgur.com/a/UpB1dJn
- jon-wood 6y ago
  It totally does, internally the camera is just connected over USB. (I can tell you it copes with a disappearing camera because mine disappeared a while ago and never came back)

jachee 6y ago

As long as you maintain physical possession of your machine, point 3 is moot, at least on Macs.

ldoughty 6y ago
See the several articles linked in this page about apple webcams/mics being turned on by hackers.... Apple is good, but they are not perfect
- jilles 6y ago
  They are not, but these articles are for < 2008 Macs. On "newer" Macbooks it done by hardware.
- acdha 6y ago
  You’re posting this late enough to have had time to see that those are all about hardware which is a decade old. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23796606 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23796606
  - not_really 6y ago
    Right, so as time progresses news comes out about said hardware being hacked. I think you've validated his point. 5 years from now we will see how today's cameras have been hacked.
    - acdha 6y ago
      This was a known weakness back then, not some amazing breakthrough, and unless the vendors are actively lying about the hardware there's no way for someone to “hack” the power connection without a soldering iron.
iso947 6y ago
I leave my laptop in my hotel room while I go out for dinner, so point 3 is valid.
- jachee 6y ago
  If I'm going to dinner where I can't take my backpack, I put mine in the safe. Can recommend. Physical security > *.
  - Drdrdrq 6y ago
    The safe that hotel provided for you? Agree that it's better than nothing though.
    - iso947 6y ago
      Safe is Probably worse than leaving in your bag
- pb7 6y ago
  You expect someone to take apart the fused display assembly and modify the intricate power pins to both the LED and camera while you’re having dinner? I hope you’re a billionaire with secrets because otherwise this is pure paranoia.
  - chli 6y ago
    What about replacing the laptop and just cloning the content. I wouldn't notice.
    - dwaite 6y ago
      The T2 chip in modern Macs is responsible for operating as the disk controller for the on-board flash, and encrypts the filesystem at rest. You could copy some data over live, but there are also non-exportable cryptographic keys in the Secure Enclave.
  - 6y ago
happytoexplain 6y ago
I don't trust their implementation of a hardware link that is both reliable and truly un-exposed to software because I don't have the expertise or time to interpret their implementation, and even if I did, I don't trust that nothing about it will become vulnerable in any MacBook model going forward into the future. I don't think point 3 is moot in any practical sense.
- jachee 6y ago
  The only way to physically get electricity to the camera unit, to be able to get any data from it is to pass that electricity through the indicator LED. Multiple teardowns have confirmed that it's a hardware path that software cannot modify.
hinkley 6y ago
... and of everything you will ever plug into the USB port on your machine, including cables.
- jachee 6y ago
  How is any of that going to rewire the hard line electrical path?

mekster 6y ago

Right. And some apps like WebEx turn on the camera by default, which is insane but happens and until you click to turn it off, you're live. Also, if you're using an external display, then how are you supposed to notice the green light on the MacBook sitting next to the display? That Apple article is nonsense. I put a black tape over the camera and I know nothing including hacks can broadcast unintended scene. It's easy to remove the tape when I actually have to which isn't too often for me.

OJFord 6y ago
Tape? I bought 10 little plastic sliding cover things on Ali Express for <£2. Unless you're on a 100% China boycott (which I assume wouldn't permit a MacBook anyway) I don't see a reason not to use them. They're fine, permanent, had for 3 years and not fallen off or anything.
- mulmen 6y ago
  I use tape because it was already in my kitchen junk drawer and I literally never use the webcam on my laptop. It’s only a threat. The sliding covers are fine but it’s just more effort to order one.
  - conductr 6y ago
    Post It flags for me!
    - stOneskull 6y ago
      stickers! i have the star wars death star over my camera.
drusepth 6y ago
>Right. And some apps like WebEx turn on the camera by default, which is insane but happens and until you click to turn it off, you're live. Not to mention apps that do it "right" like Hangouts that enable the camera for you to preview your video feed before you're actually live. Could be pretty confusing/concerning for someone who isn't used to an app (and when it broadcasts you or not) and sees the light come on. A cover takes that whole thought worry-pitfall out of the possibilities.

ccktlmazeltov 6y ago

I've actually been on calls when the person did not want to show their webcam (and I had never seen them face to face) and did not notice they were showing their webcam due to having several screens.

Kliment 6y ago

Same on all counts, though I went a step further and wired in a microminiature slide switch to completely power off the camera. That way applications see "no camera" unless I go out of my way to power it on. I painted the "on" side of the switch in retroreflective paint so I can see when it's on at a glance too, whether the camera is in use or not. This was on a thinkpad though, I doubt macos would tolerate a disappearing camera.

def8cefe 6y ago
Do you have pictures to share? Sounds cool.
- Kliment 6y ago
  Sadly no pictures of the insides. I'll give you a description though. I cut a trace on the camera module (should have cut the cable instead on second thought) and soldered in two bits of enamel wire that go to a slide switch. Clipped a little bit of plastic off the lid so the switch was accessible, blind-drilled two tiny holes in the lid for the alignment pegs of the switch to go into, and glued it in place. I then did the painting with a very fine brush under a microscope. The wires are routed around the camera module and the switch is to the left of the camera, in order not to interfere with the little LED on the right of the camera that illuminates the work area. The outside looks like this (I didn't bother cleaning up the cut-off plastic edge): https://imgur.com/a/UpB1dJn https://imgur.com/a/UpB1dJn
jon-wood 6y ago
It totally does, internally the camera is just connected over USB. (I can tell you it copes with a disappearing camera because mine disappeared a while ago and never came back)