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Recent Apple laptops have a separate SoC dedicated to secure boot as well as making sure macOS has no direct control over that camera indicator light, and more

by apecat 6y ago

Recent Apple laptops have a separate SoC dedicated to secure boot as well as making sure macOS has no direct control over that camera indicator light, and more https://appleinsider.com/articles/19/07/29/what-apples-t2-chip-does-in-your-new-macbook-air-or-macbook-pro https://appleinsider.com/articles/19/07/29/what-apples-t2-ch... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Silicon#T_series https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Silicon#T_series

aboutBen 6y ago
If the T2 chip is compromised, then separate SoC protection is moot. The only true protection is a physical covering (like in the Lenovo) or physical kill switch (like the Purism laptops).
- Closi 6y ago
  At that stage though all bets are off - the hackers have access to everything you have typed, all your files, all the audio from your microphones, your credit card details, those photos of you and your partner on the hard drive... Yet the camera on a laptop is the thing that we need to cover? It’s a weird security model, that’s all. Besides, on a MacBook it sounds like the webcam light is almost impossible to circumvent because of the implementation.
  - y7 6y ago
    For those photos of you and your partner you made the conscious decision to take them, perhaps even weighing the risks of them being compromised at some point. This is very different from a video feed being captured of you unknowingly. That goes for both the impact of such a compromise, and the feeling of the risk of being watched. Almost impossible just means it requires lots of money/dedication, but still a T2 chip compromise is scalable and can be done remotely, which is fundamentally different from physically compromising hardware.
  - GekkePrutser 6y ago
    Well Purism laptops have hardware switches for the microphones too. But it's not even just for hackers. Zoom had the SUPER annoying habit of turning your cam on when the meeting organiser selected that everyone should cam. This led to several colleagues being unaware they were being shown at that time. One was even lying in bed and called in from her phone. That's her business, it was 8pm at her location. But now everyone knows. A hardware slider would have prevented all of these real-world problems.
Wingman4l7 6y ago
The handy-dandy T2 also helps to soft-brick laptops, destroying that pesky second-hand market! Poor Apple had already destroyed that for iPhones and iPads but just couldn't do it for their laptops, until now! https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/akw558/apples-t2-security-chip-has-created-a-nightmare-for-macbook-refurbishers https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/akw558/apples-t2-security...
- apecat 6y ago
  In terms of giving some kind of supply chain assurance it's not a bad idea by itself. I'd prefer a non-bricking variant with a red boot screen warning about non-original spare parts, or something to that effect.
  - Wingman4l7 6y ago
    Sure, but it's way too tempting and too short of a step from that, to "Sorry, this device won't work with unauthorized third-party parts... for your safety. Please shell out $$ for repairs from an Authorized Retailer, if you can find one and if they offer them."
- pfranz 6y ago
  I think it's a bit overstating that it destroys the secondhand market. I still see non-working Macs on ebay for hundreds of dollars. The resale value of a well-maintained Mac continues to be much higher than any other brand. These kinds of changes have also made great strides in reducing the incentive to steal phones. There was a specific update that the NYPD pointed out reduced iPhone thefts significantly. But, I do wholeheartedly endorse right to repair. I'm very bummed about the recovery options for newer laptops with non-removable drives. I was also bummed to hear that ARM-Macs won't have Target Disk Mode.
  - Wingman4l7 6y ago
    It hasn't had a chance to impact the secondhand market yet. The laptops with the T2 chip are relatively new, and aren't getting decommissioned & recycled in significant numbers. It will be a tremendous waste when they are. Those laptops will still be valuable for some parts, but considering now that not only the RAM is soldered to the motherboard, but the SSD too... there's not going to be much left to use. I find the "theft" argument very hard to swallow for two reasons. First, thieves will consistently steal electronics -- smash-and-grab first, discard later. A thief unable to sell your irretrievably lost phone is a pyrrhic victory, to be sure. Thieves with domain knowledge may be savvy enough to stay away, but I would bet that is rare and more limited to organized theft rings. Secondly, and more damning, Apple has repeatedly paid lobbyists to parrot the anti-theft security scenario at hearings discussing enacting right-to-repair laws (as well as spreading misleading FUD on repair safety). Apple could work with legit recyclers to find sustainable ways to recover donated products, but they very deliberately refuse to. IMO this makes their security arguments suspect. In general, I'm very distrustful of a security model that relies so heavily on their cloud holding all the keys.

by apecat 6y ago

aboutBen 6y ago

If the T2 chip is compromised, then separate SoC protection is moot. The only true protection is a physical covering (like in the Lenovo) or physical kill switch (like the Purism laptops).

Closi 6y ago
At that stage though all bets are off - the hackers have access to everything you have typed, all your files, all the audio from your microphones, your credit card details, those photos of you and your partner on the hard drive... Yet the camera on a laptop is the thing that we need to cover? It’s a weird security model, that’s all. Besides, on a MacBook it sounds like the webcam light is almost impossible to circumvent because of the implementation.
- y7 6y ago
  For those photos of you and your partner you made the conscious decision to take them, perhaps even weighing the risks of them being compromised at some point. This is very different from a video feed being captured of you unknowingly. That goes for both the impact of such a compromise, and the feeling of the risk of being watched. Almost impossible just means it requires lots of money/dedication, but still a T2 chip compromise is scalable and can be done remotely, which is fundamentally different from physically compromising hardware.
- GekkePrutser 6y ago
  Well Purism laptops have hardware switches for the microphones too. But it's not even just for hackers. Zoom had the SUPER annoying habit of turning your cam on when the meeting organiser selected that everyone should cam. This led to several colleagues being unaware they were being shown at that time. One was even lying in bed and called in from her phone. That's her business, it was 8pm at her location. But now everyone knows. A hardware slider would have prevented all of these real-world problems.

Wingman4l7 6y ago

The handy-dandy T2 also helps to soft-brick laptops, destroying that pesky second-hand market! Poor Apple had already destroyed that for iPhones and iPads but just couldn't do it for their laptops, until now! https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/akw558/apples-t2-security-chip-has-created-a-nightmare-for-macbook-refurbishers https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/akw558/apples-t2-security...

apecat 6y ago
In terms of giving some kind of supply chain assurance it's not a bad idea by itself. I'd prefer a non-bricking variant with a red boot screen warning about non-original spare parts, or something to that effect.
- Wingman4l7 6y ago
  Sure, but it's way too tempting and too short of a step from that, to "Sorry, this device won't work with unauthorized third-party parts... for your safety. Please shell out $$ for repairs from an Authorized Retailer, if you can find one and if they offer them."
pfranz 6y ago
I think it's a bit overstating that it destroys the secondhand market. I still see non-working Macs on ebay for hundreds of dollars. The resale value of a well-maintained Mac continues to be much higher than any other brand. These kinds of changes have also made great strides in reducing the incentive to steal phones. There was a specific update that the NYPD pointed out reduced iPhone thefts significantly. But, I do wholeheartedly endorse right to repair. I'm very bummed about the recovery options for newer laptops with non-removable drives. I was also bummed to hear that ARM-Macs won't have Target Disk Mode.
- Wingman4l7 6y ago
  It hasn't had a chance to impact the secondhand market yet. The laptops with the T2 chip are relatively new, and aren't getting decommissioned & recycled in significant numbers. It will be a tremendous waste when they are. Those laptops will still be valuable for some parts, but considering now that not only the RAM is soldered to the motherboard, but the SSD too... there's not going to be much left to use. I find the "theft" argument very hard to swallow for two reasons. First, thieves will consistently steal electronics -- smash-and-grab first, discard later. A thief unable to sell your irretrievably lost phone is a pyrrhic victory, to be sure. Thieves with domain knowledge may be savvy enough to stay away, but I would bet that is rare and more limited to organized theft rings. Secondly, and more damning, Apple has repeatedly paid lobbyists to parrot the anti-theft security scenario at hearings discussing enacting right-to-repair laws (as well as spreading misleading FUD on repair safety). Apple could work with legit recyclers to find sustainable ways to recover donated products, but they very deliberately refuse to. IMO this makes their security arguments suspect. In general, I'm very distrustful of a security model that relies so heavily on their cloud holding all the keys.