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I feel like this TikTok backlash is so overblown. I don't think TikTok is spying on US consumers/business, and I don't think TikTok is sharing any US private da

by a13n 6y ago

I feel like this TikTok backlash is so overblown. I don't think TikTok is spying on US consumers/business, and I don't think TikTok is sharing any US private data with CCP... I believe this because there's no evidence to the contrary, and out of principle you shouldn't assume malintent. In fact, TikTok explicitly left Hong Kong because if they didn't they would have to share private data with CCP to comply with new laws... they're intentionally leaving MAU on the table to keep their users' data safe. [1] If you look around, US social companies are making the same mistake with your clipboard data that TikTok did. LinkedIn just got caught reading your clipboard data [2], but we aren't talking about banning them... I would assume in all of these cases, it's just an engineer who accidentally shipped a bug. There are legitimate use cases to read the clipboard (eg. more seamless 2fa). It feels like the negative reaction to TikTok is so politicized and just comes from a "China bad" attitude. [1]: https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/07/tech/tiktok-leaving-hong-kong-intl-hnk/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/07/tech/tiktok-leaving-hong-kong... [2]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23716451 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23716451

michaelmrose 6y ago
China is building concentration camps that they use for slave labor, ripping organs out of the still living bodies of political prisonersto give to its rich class, creating an increasingly dystopian super surveillance state wherein you could be subtly punished for associating with the wrong people, has no means of redress or removal of the dictator for life, and treats all enterprises as organs of the state that are expected to spy for the state. China is bad.
- jml7c5 6y ago
  All that may be true, yet it still does not mean rationality should be thrown out the window when evaluating claims about TikTok.
  - apta 6y ago
    Better be safe than sorry. That's quite rational given what we've seen from the Chinese govt.
  - michaelmrose 6y ago
    I reasonable position is to trust nothing originating from China that can't be dependently verified. I don't think any system can be said to be fully proof against malicious software which could be reintroduced at any given time. The logical position is to throw out the bathwater and the baby its not like there aren't enough sources of short pointless videos to waste our time on.
  - reaperducer 6y ago
    All that may be true, yet it still does not mean rationality should be thrown out the window when evaluating claims about TikTok. If you lie down with dogs, you get fleas.
  - michaelmrose 6y ago
    Can you not flag people for criticism of China?
kilo_bravo_3 6y ago
>It feels like the negative reaction to TikTok is so politicized and just comes from a "China bad" attitude. The Chinese government is actual, literal, evil. That is not "PoLiTiCaL" or "China Bad". It is indisputable that the Chinese government: * is running concentration camps that house over a million people * exploits forced labor, a polite term for actual literal slavery * imprisons people arbitrarily for anti-government sentiment Anyone who says "buh buh facebookz and NSA" to excuse or minimize the actions of the Chinese Communist Party is so incapable of rational thought that they should be shunned and ridiculed. You are not put on a government watchlist for comparing the President of the United States to a cartoon character and you are not arrested for subversive thought for selling anti-government books. And no, YouTube telling bigots to GTFO is not the same thing as being arrested for selling books. The CEO of ByteDance (the firm that owns TikTok) is on the record has having said that it is his intent to deeply cooperate with the Chinese Communist Party to promote its ideals and policies. It is probably best to take him at his word. I invite anyone who disagrees to fly to Beijing and walk around Tian An Men Square carrying this book: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1423135792/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_U_9QlcFbBSE7XWV https://www.amazon.com/dp/1423135792/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_U_... I will buy the book for you. edit: or better yet, take a flight to any city in China. Book a room in a hotel and go down to the pool and write out one page about the TianJin explosion, questioning whether or not the offical death count is correct. Then go to a print shop and make a couple hundred copies. Then stand on any busy street corner with a sign that reads: "questions about the TianJin explosion, please take one" (in Chinese, of course). And here's the kicker: video it and upload it to TikTok. I won't do it because the Chinese government is evil and I'm scared.
vesche 6y ago
Some light reading: https://rufposten.de/blog/2019/12/05/privacy-analysis-of-tiktoks-app-and-website/ https://rufposten.de/blog/2019/12/05/privacy-analysis-of-tik... https://docs.google.com/document/d/1QEyWqAiTE_5xzCs_X3tjDCQxMvWWtntdJnhBOjtP9Qg/edit https://docs.google.com/document/d/1QEyWqAiTE_5xzCs_X3tjDCQx... https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/fxgi06/not_new_news_but_tbh_if_you_have_tiktiok_just_get/fmuko1m/?context=1 https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/fxgi06/not_new_news... https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/tiktoks-owner-is-helping-chinas-campaign-of-repression-in-xinjiang-report-finds/2019/11/28/98e8d9e4-119f-11ea-bf62-eadd5d11f559_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/tiktoks-owner-is-helpin... https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/video-app-linked-to-china-s-ruling-party-8c7j3ljlj https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/video-app-linked-to-china... https://www.wired.com/story/tiktok-is-the-latest-window-into-chinas-police-state/ https://www.wired.com/story/tiktok-is-the-latest-window-into... https://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/politics/478015-exercise-caution-when-using-chinese-apps-like-tiktok https://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/politics/478015-exer... https://www.forbes.com/sites/zakdoffman/2020/06/26/warning-apple-suddenly-catches-tiktok-secretly-spying-on-millions-of-iphone-users/#484ce3434ef0 https://www.forbes.com/sites/zakdoffman/2020/06/26/warning-a...
- a13n 6y ago
  I just read/skimmed each of these links. Is this any less data than is collected by Facebook or Google in their apps/websites? This seems like mostly an issue with the fact that Android lets apps get at this much data - something that should be fixed at the OS-level. There's very little mention of similar practices/vulnerabilities on iOS.
  - vesche 6y ago
    You read all of that in 8 minutes? Try again and maybe even read the very first link. Facebook and Google aren't creating unique fingerprints for you based on high frequency audio... Read the two other research reports, they mention that TikTok's aggressive data collection is much more extreme than apps like Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter. Why defend China? You are aware that they are currently conducting an operation that is likely the worst human rights crisis since the Holocaust. You need to re-evaluate your views.
scohesc 6y ago
It's been admitted that tiktok actively suppresses content on peoples front pages that include visibly disabled users, "ugly" users, fat users, etc. etc. - anything that makes their image look "bad" in their eyes. Kind of goes against current shoe-horned American societal values of "everyone should be respected, regardless of who, what, how, when, where they are"
- nickthegreek 6y ago
  And they also came out to make changes to that system.
  - propogandist 6y ago
    after they were exposed, to avoid negative PR
- russellbeattie 6y ago
  "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal..." You're not wrong about TikTok, but 244 years and 6 days seems like a long time to consider a particular set of values "shoe-horned".
metaphorical 6y ago
TikTok left Hong Kong because HK is a tiny market, and they wouldn't want the PR backblash if they had to share HK data with CCP. There's evidence that Bytedance is not independent of CCP interferences though - such as the CEO's public statement in 2018 where he stated that Bytedance products should support "socialist core values" etc. https://chinamediaproject.org/2018/04/11/tech-shame-in-the-new-era/ https://chinamediaproject.org/2018/04/11/tech-shame-in-the-n...
- bonzini 6y ago
  Or maybe they left so that HK users must switch to the app for the Chinese-market, the one that definitely shares stuff with the CCP?...
themacguffinman 6y ago
Assuming good intentions from TikTok is pretty ignorant. ByteDance's other app, DouYin, is unambiguously a CCP controlled tool that censors dissent and their CEO ingratiatingly and apologetically dedicated the company to "Strengthening the work of Party construction, carrying out education among our entire staff on the “four consciousnesses,” socialist core values, guidance of public opinion" in a public statement [1]. Suggesting that TikTok is leaving MAU on the table to keep users' data safe is laughable when ByteDance's other Party-controlled app, DouYin, is remaining in Hong Kong with a captive audience (as helpfully confirmed by Global Times [2], a well-known mouthpiece of the Party). To even suggest that it's a sign of good intentions would ignore extremely important current events and ByteDance's self-proclaimed devotion to the Party. As we speak, the Party is aggressively assimilating Hong Kong into the mainland by banning public expressions of dissent, controlling educational curriculum, and yes, good old censorship. Forcing HK residents to use only Party-controlled tools that the rest of the mainland uses, like DouYin made by ByteDance, only serves to further the "work of Party construction". TikTok is political because it is wholly owned by a self-proclaimed political entity: ByteDance. It's disingenuous to suggest there is no reason to assume malintent when ByteDance has a history of censorship and propaganda in its flagship app: DouYin. Your glib dismissal of "China bad" has no substance behind it, while China's ample human rights and totalitarian abuses speak for themselves. Putting the actions of independent private corporations in a free-speech democracy on the same level as the actions of a publicly-proclaimed ally of an authoritarian human rights abuser is plain nonsense. Context matters. [1] https://chinamediaproject.org/2018/04/11/tech-shame-in-the-new-era/ https://chinamediaproject.org/2018/04/11/tech-shame-in-the-n... [2] https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/status/1280365054655791104 https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/status/12803650546557911...
Mekantis 6y ago
I have no idea how anybody can look at TikTok with a straight face and not see that they're a threat. Maybe if you've conveniently closed your eyes to the CCP's behavior in the past, say, 10-20 years regarding corporate espionage and suppressing freedom of speech and compiling profiles of everybody who dares speak out about them, as well as their behavior now in recent events (particularly how they're more than eager to punish local dissidents). Then, I guess, sure, there's absolutely nothing here to see. As with every Chinese company, the problem isn't that they're Chinese. It's that as a Chinese company, they exist only with the blessing of the CCP.
- Wingman4l7 6y ago
  > As with every Chinese company, the problem isn't that they're Chinese. It's that as a Chinese company, they exist only with the blessing of the CCP. This, 100%. The Chinese government's word is LAW. Just look at how many American tech companies have either a) been kicked out of China for refusing to hand over data to the CCP or given them backdoors or b) started censoring their services to stay in compliance and be allowed to stay in business there. If the Chinese government wants something from a Chinese business, one of two things happens: 1) they get it (whether you find out about it or not) or 2) the business ceases to exist.

by a13n 6y ago

michaelmrose 6y ago

China is building concentration camps that they use for slave labor, ripping organs out of the still living bodies of political prisonersto give to its rich class, creating an increasingly dystopian super surveillance state wherein you could be subtly punished for associating with the wrong people, has no means of redress or removal of the dictator for life, and treats all enterprises as organs of the state that are expected to spy for the state. China is bad.

jml7c5 6y ago
All that may be true, yet it still does not mean rationality should be thrown out the window when evaluating claims about TikTok.
- apta 6y ago
  Better be safe than sorry. That's quite rational given what we've seen from the Chinese govt.
- michaelmrose 6y ago
  I reasonable position is to trust nothing originating from China that can't be dependently verified. I don't think any system can be said to be fully proof against malicious software which could be reintroduced at any given time. The logical position is to throw out the bathwater and the baby its not like there aren't enough sources of short pointless videos to waste our time on.
- reaperducer 6y ago
  All that may be true, yet it still does not mean rationality should be thrown out the window when evaluating claims about TikTok. If you lie down with dogs, you get fleas.
- michaelmrose 6y ago
  Can you not flag people for criticism of China?

kilo_bravo_3 6y ago

>It feels like the negative reaction to TikTok is so politicized and just comes from a "China bad" attitude. The Chinese government is actual, literal, evil. That is not "PoLiTiCaL" or "China Bad". It is indisputable that the Chinese government: * is running concentration camps that house over a million people * exploits forced labor, a polite term for actual literal slavery * imprisons people arbitrarily for anti-government sentiment Anyone who says "buh buh facebookz and NSA" to excuse or minimize the actions of the Chinese Communist Party is so incapable of rational thought that they should be shunned and ridiculed. You are not put on a government watchlist for comparing the President of the United States to a cartoon character and you are not arrested for subversive thought for selling anti-government books. And no, YouTube telling bigots to GTFO is not the same thing as being arrested for selling books. The CEO of ByteDance (the firm that owns TikTok) is on the record has having said that it is his intent to deeply cooperate with the Chinese Communist Party to promote its ideals and policies. It is probably best to take him at his word. I invite anyone who disagrees to fly to Beijing and walk around Tian An Men Square carrying this book: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1423135792/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_U_9QlcFbBSE7XWV https://www.amazon.com/dp/1423135792/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_U_... I will buy the book for you. edit: or better yet, take a flight to any city in China. Book a room in a hotel and go down to the pool and write out one page about the TianJin explosion, questioning whether or not the offical death count is correct. Then go to a print shop and make a couple hundred copies. Then stand on any busy street corner with a sign that reads: "questions about the TianJin explosion, please take one" (in Chinese, of course). And here's the kicker: video it and upload it to TikTok. I won't do it because the Chinese government is evil and I'm scared.

vesche 6y ago

Some light reading: https://rufposten.de/blog/2019/12/05/privacy-analysis-of-tiktoks-app-and-website/ https://rufposten.de/blog/2019/12/05/privacy-analysis-of-tik... https://docs.google.com/document/d/1QEyWqAiTE_5xzCs_X3tjDCQxMvWWtntdJnhBOjtP9Qg/edit https://docs.google.com/document/d/1QEyWqAiTE_5xzCs_X3tjDCQx... https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/fxgi06/not_new_news_but_tbh_if_you_have_tiktiok_just_get/fmuko1m/?context=1 https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/fxgi06/not_new_news... https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/tiktoks-owner-is-helping-chinas-campaign-of-repression-in-xinjiang-report-finds/2019/11/28/98e8d9e4-119f-11ea-bf62-eadd5d11f559_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/tiktoks-owner-is-helpin... https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/video-app-linked-to-china-s-ruling-party-8c7j3ljlj https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/video-app-linked-to-china... https://www.wired.com/story/tiktok-is-the-latest-window-into-chinas-police-state/ https://www.wired.com/story/tiktok-is-the-latest-window-into... https://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/politics/478015-exercise-caution-when-using-chinese-apps-like-tiktok https://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/politics/478015-exer... https://www.forbes.com/sites/zakdoffman/2020/06/26/warning-apple-suddenly-catches-tiktok-secretly-spying-on-millions-of-iphone-users/#484ce3434ef0 https://www.forbes.com/sites/zakdoffman/2020/06/26/warning-a...

a13n 6y ago
I just read/skimmed each of these links. Is this any less data than is collected by Facebook or Google in their apps/websites? This seems like mostly an issue with the fact that Android lets apps get at this much data - something that should be fixed at the OS-level. There's very little mention of similar practices/vulnerabilities on iOS.
- vesche 6y ago
  You read all of that in 8 minutes? Try again and maybe even read the very first link. Facebook and Google aren't creating unique fingerprints for you based on high frequency audio... Read the two other research reports, they mention that TikTok's aggressive data collection is much more extreme than apps like Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter. Why defend China? You are aware that they are currently conducting an operation that is likely the worst human rights crisis since the Holocaust. You need to re-evaluate your views.

scohesc 6y ago

It's been admitted that tiktok actively suppresses content on peoples front pages that include visibly disabled users, "ugly" users, fat users, etc. etc. - anything that makes their image look "bad" in their eyes. Kind of goes against current shoe-horned American societal values of "everyone should be respected, regardless of who, what, how, when, where they are"

nickthegreek 6y ago
And they also came out to make changes to that system.
- propogandist 6y ago
  after they were exposed, to avoid negative PR
russellbeattie 6y ago
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal..." You're not wrong about TikTok, but 244 years and 6 days seems like a long time to consider a particular set of values "shoe-horned".

metaphorical 6y ago

TikTok left Hong Kong because HK is a tiny market, and they wouldn't want the PR backblash if they had to share HK data with CCP. There's evidence that Bytedance is not independent of CCP interferences though - such as the CEO's public statement in 2018 where he stated that Bytedance products should support "socialist core values" etc. https://chinamediaproject.org/2018/04/11/tech-shame-in-the-new-era/ https://chinamediaproject.org/2018/04/11/tech-shame-in-the-n...

bonzini 6y ago
Or maybe they left so that HK users must switch to the app for the Chinese-market, the one that definitely shares stuff with the CCP?...

themacguffinman 6y ago

Assuming good intentions from TikTok is pretty ignorant. ByteDance's other app, DouYin, is unambiguously a CCP controlled tool that censors dissent and their CEO ingratiatingly and apologetically dedicated the company to "Strengthening the work of Party construction, carrying out education among our entire staff on the “four consciousnesses,” socialist core values, guidance of public opinion" in a public statement [1]. Suggesting that TikTok is leaving MAU on the table to keep users' data safe is laughable when ByteDance's other Party-controlled app, DouYin, is remaining in Hong Kong with a captive audience (as helpfully confirmed by Global Times [2], a well-known mouthpiece of the Party). To even suggest that it's a sign of good intentions would ignore extremely important current events and ByteDance's self-proclaimed devotion to the Party. As we speak, the Party is aggressively assimilating Hong Kong into the mainland by banning public expressions of dissent, controlling educational curriculum, and yes, good old censorship. Forcing HK residents to use only Party-controlled tools that the rest of the mainland uses, like DouYin made by ByteDance, only serves to further the "work of Party construction". TikTok is political because it is wholly owned by a self-proclaimed political entity: ByteDance. It's disingenuous to suggest there is no reason to assume malintent when ByteDance has a history of censorship and propaganda in its flagship app: DouYin. Your glib dismissal of "China bad" has no substance behind it, while China's ample human rights and totalitarian abuses speak for themselves. Putting the actions of independent private corporations in a free-speech democracy on the same level as the actions of a publicly-proclaimed ally of an authoritarian human rights abuser is plain nonsense. Context matters. [1] https://chinamediaproject.org/2018/04/11/tech-shame-in-the-new-era/ https://chinamediaproject.org/2018/04/11/tech-shame-in-the-n... [2] https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/status/1280365054655791104 https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/status/12803650546557911...

Mekantis 6y ago

I have no idea how anybody can look at TikTok with a straight face and not see that they're a threat. Maybe if you've conveniently closed your eyes to the CCP's behavior in the past, say, 10-20 years regarding corporate espionage and suppressing freedom of speech and compiling profiles of everybody who dares speak out about them, as well as their behavior now in recent events (particularly how they're more than eager to punish local dissidents). Then, I guess, sure, there's absolutely nothing here to see. As with every Chinese company, the problem isn't that they're Chinese. It's that as a Chinese company, they exist only with the blessing of the CCP.

Wingman4l7 6y ago
> As with every Chinese company, the problem isn't that they're Chinese. It's that as a Chinese company, they exist only with the blessing of the CCP. This, 100%. The Chinese government's word is LAW. Just look at how many American tech companies have either a) been kicked out of China for refusing to hand over data to the CCP or given them backdoors or b) started censoring their services to stay in compliance and be allowed to stay in business there. If the Chinese government wants something from a Chinese business, one of two things happens: 1) they get it (whether you find out about it or not) or 2) the business ceases to exist.