4 ms·

Drivers are not bound in any way to Uber, Uber won't send slave hunters if they leave the app. If people continue to drive for Uber, doesn't that mean the app

by devtul 6y ago

Drivers are not bound in any way to Uber, Uber won't send slave hunters if they leave the app. If people continue to drive for Uber, doesn't that mean the app is still a net positive for them, or do you believe people would pay to work? Your comment is a great example of what the parent comment is saying, the belief that people are too damn dumb and they need protection.

gpderetta 6y ago
You do not really have an option if all options are bad. And less bad options will be outcompeted by worse options.
- AnthonyMouse 6y ago
  > And less bad options will be outcompeted by worse options. This is by definition the opposite of what "outcompeted" means.
  - gpderetta 6y ago
    The option is bad from the employee point of view, bit the company, having smaller expenses can outcompete its competition.
    - AnthonyMouse 6y ago
      That's true in the market for e.g. rides, but then that's good, customers get lower prices. Meanwhile their competition in the market for labor is mainly the likes of Walmart and Starbucks. There is no plausible mechanism for Uber to "outcompete" Walmart by offering cheaper rides because Walmart isn't in that line of business to begin with.
karpierz 6y ago
I believe that people will take deals that don't benefit them. But that's not the point here. The numbers are made up, but say Uber makes 10$ per ride and the driver makes 10$ per ride. If the drivers get together, they might be able to negotiate 15$ per ride, leaving 5$ per ride for Uber. However, it might be hard for the people to do that, so the government can step in to improve conditions for riders by negotiating for them as a block.
- AnthonyMouse 6y ago
  All of this labor theory only applies when you're negotiating with a monopolist. Otherwise the company already has thin margins as a result of needing to compete with other companies -- remember all that stuff about Uber losing money? -- and there is little more they can give you without trading it against something else you want, like flexibility or number of hours. The primary way they could pay drivers more is by charging higher fares. But then there is lower demand for rides, so they need fewer drivers, so some of the drivers lose their jobs. If you think that's a good trade off then take it now -- quit and go do something else. It will cause the remaining drivers to be able to command higher compensation. Everybody wants to be the one to get paid more and not the one who loses their job, but some of them will necessarily be wrong.
_jal 6y ago
> or do you believe people would pay to work? Given that people fall for scams that take money in return for a fake promise of employment, yes, I do. Aside from that, what is your limiting principle? Where is the power imbalance line between an employer and employee too much for this principle to bear?
- controversy 6y ago
  It doesn’t exist. The people would stop working for the employer. They would work in other business. Perhaps work for those in direct competition to The Employer. The Employer would go out of business.
  - darwinwhy 6y ago
    This is the kind of libertarian drivel I thought would be out of fashion by now. This isn't the naive early 2000s internet anymore. In the real world labor markets are not perfectly competitive, from non-compete clauses, to no-poaching agreements, to skillset mismatches, to a dozen other major factors increasing employer market power.
    - controversy 6y ago
      You’re right. The government puts restrictions on businesses that give established entities a competitive advantage. The government could end non competes. Some have. I’m not for no government. I’m for government of, for and by the people. Corporations are not and never will be people. They are contracting entities.
      - Avicebron 6y ago
        Except rampant inequality enforces the power imbalance between the prospective employer and employee. Even without protection from competitors, established players will crush or absorb competition.
    - _jal 6y ago
      This listing overlooks one of the biggest imbalances that lots of folks seem to overlook: employer monopsony. There are big chunks of the country where one dominant employer effectively controls employment, either directly or indirectly through the ability to pressure suppliers. Piss off the wrong person and you have a problem. Of course, people born in those places can theoretically vote with their feet, although most people seem to find that much easier said than done. https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/sites/default/files/page/files/20161025_monopsony_labor_mrkt_cea.pdf https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/sites/default/files/pag...

by devtul 6y ago

gpderetta 6y ago

You do not really have an option if all options are bad. And less bad options will be outcompeted by worse options.

AnthonyMouse 6y ago
> And less bad options will be outcompeted by worse options. This is by definition the opposite of what "outcompeted" means.
- gpderetta 6y ago
  The option is bad from the employee point of view, bit the company, having smaller expenses can outcompete its competition.
  - AnthonyMouse 6y ago
    That's true in the market for e.g. rides, but then that's good, customers get lower prices. Meanwhile their competition in the market for labor is mainly the likes of Walmart and Starbucks. There is no plausible mechanism for Uber to "outcompete" Walmart by offering cheaper rides because Walmart isn't in that line of business to begin with.

karpierz 6y ago

I believe that people will take deals that don't benefit them. But that's not the point here. The numbers are made up, but say Uber makes 10$ per ride and the driver makes 10$ per ride. If the drivers get together, they might be able to negotiate 15$ per ride, leaving 5$ per ride for Uber. However, it might be hard for the people to do that, so the government can step in to improve conditions for riders by negotiating for them as a block.

AnthonyMouse 6y ago
All of this labor theory only applies when you're negotiating with a monopolist. Otherwise the company already has thin margins as a result of needing to compete with other companies -- remember all that stuff about Uber losing money? -- and there is little more they can give you without trading it against something else you want, like flexibility or number of hours. The primary way they could pay drivers more is by charging higher fares. But then there is lower demand for rides, so they need fewer drivers, so some of the drivers lose their jobs. If you think that's a good trade off then take it now -- quit and go do something else. It will cause the remaining drivers to be able to command higher compensation. Everybody wants to be the one to get paid more and not the one who loses their job, but some of them will necessarily be wrong.

_jal 6y ago

> or do you believe people would pay to work? Given that people fall for scams that take money in return for a fake promise of employment, yes, I do. Aside from that, what is your limiting principle? Where is the power imbalance line between an employer and employee too much for this principle to bear?

controversy 6y ago
It doesn’t exist. The people would stop working for the employer. They would work in other business. Perhaps work for those in direct competition to The Employer. The Employer would go out of business.
- darwinwhy 6y ago
  This is the kind of libertarian drivel I thought would be out of fashion by now. This isn't the naive early 2000s internet anymore. In the real world labor markets are not perfectly competitive, from non-compete clauses, to no-poaching agreements, to skillset mismatches, to a dozen other major factors increasing employer market power.
  - controversy 6y ago
    You’re right. The government puts restrictions on businesses that give established entities a competitive advantage. The government could end non competes. Some have. I’m not for no government. I’m for government of, for and by the people. Corporations are not and never will be people. They are contracting entities.
    - Avicebron 6y ago
      Except rampant inequality enforces the power imbalance between the prospective employer and employee. Even without protection from competitors, established players will crush or absorb competition.
  - _jal 6y ago
    This listing overlooks one of the biggest imbalances that lots of folks seem to overlook: employer monopsony. There are big chunks of the country where one dominant employer effectively controls employment, either directly or indirectly through the ability to pressure suppliers. Piss off the wrong person and you have a problem. Of course, people born in those places can theoretically vote with their feet, although most people seem to find that much easier said than done. https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/sites/default/files/page/files/20161025_monopsony_labor_mrkt_cea.pdf https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/sites/default/files/pag...