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The issue that I have is that the Catholic Church has enormous assets, something like 30 billion in net worth globally. I'm feeling like the church had options

The issue that I have is that the Catholic Church has enormous assets, something like 30 billion in net worth globally. I'm feeling like the church had options beyond lobbying for relief.

jawns 6y ago
Those assets are, in large part, the church buildings themselves. They are not liquid assets. Indeed, they are even more illiquid than most other real estate, because the market for church buildings, all of which are constructed to meet the needs and functions of a particular faith, is quite limited. A lot of people are under the mistaken impression that the Catholic Church has vast piles of money sitting around in a Scrooge McDuck-style money bin. Whereas if you look at the balance sheets of your average Catholic parish or diocese, you'll see that their budgets are relatively modest, they sometimes operate in the red, and to the extent that they have liquid assets, they're generally set aside to fulfill pension obligations. Even at the Vatican level, the annual operating budget is roughly equivalent to a mid-sized U.S. city, and expenses tend to be fairly close to income. The art in its museums is often mistakenly viewed as if it could be sold off like gold or diamonds, but the Vatican actually acts more as a conservator than an owner of the pieces. It does not consider itself at liberty to sell the art, because it was entrusted to the Vatican's care under the expectation that it would be perpetually maintained. In that sense, the art truly is priceless; it can't be sold.
- annoyingnoob 6y ago
  One should be able to leverage some amount of value of those assets for loans. When you have assets you have options. And I'm sure they have lots of followers that will give money until it hurts to keep their Church from failing - a business can't ask its employees to fund things for a while in the same way a church can ask its followers. The church has options that others do not have and lobbying should not come first.
- Theory5 6y ago
  "Those assets are, in large part, the church buildings themselves. They are not liquid assets. Indeed, they are even more illiquid than most other real estate, because the market for church buildings, all of which are constructed to meet the needs and functions of a particular faith, is quite limited." I don't think that's true. Years ago in Boston MA during one of the big legal where church leaders were accused of child molestation/rape/sex abuse, the church was ordered to pay $85 million dollars to the victims, some 260 people I think. They took short term loans to pay that, then sold 15 buildings that netted them over 100 million dollars. One of the biggest properties was the archbishop's residence. They didn't tap into the normal petitioners funds and similar, just took out some loans, took some insuance payouts to cover the 85 mil, then less then a year later sold those 15 buildings for over 100 mil. The building packages were thought to be worth at minimum $1 mil per acre. This was between 03 and 04. In 2020, they were able to move around $2 billion to shield those assets from being taken into account during more recent sex abuse payouts. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2020-01-08/the-catholic-church-s-strategy-to-limit-payouts-to-abuse-victims https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2020-01-08/the-catho... They sure as shit can liquidate, or move very large amounts of assets around to protect their own organization. https://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/10/us/church-in-boston-to-pay-85-million-in-abuse-lawsuits.html https://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/10/us/church-in-boston-to-pa... They're not a small business in any sense of the word, and they took money they don't need, seeing as it can take them less than a year to sell $100 mil+ worth of assets to cover payments to 260 sex abuse victims 15+ years ago, or move around 2 billion worth of assets in a ploy to try and reduce what they'll have to pay to victims of these leaders.
- rdsnsca 6y ago
  Three church buildings have been sold within 20 miles of me the last few years. One is now a brewery / bar, one a town library and the last two offices, They all still look like churches outside, one just has to think outside the box.
- annoyingnoob 6y ago
  In Santa Barbara you can find the Church of Skatan. A skateboard shop built in a church building.
true_religion 6y ago
30 billion would but them at 1/10th the net wealth of Walmart. They are a 2000 year old charity. They rich compared to other charities (e.g. the Red Cross has 1.8 billion net worth ), but even a for profit department store chain like Walmart can accumulate more assets.
mrbonner 6y ago
Not as enormous as the Mormon church my friend. I read from an WJS article that they have to the upper of $100B.

The issue that I have is that the Catholic Church has enormous assets, something like 30 billion in net worth globally. I'm feeling like the church had options beyond lobbying for relief.

jawns 6y ago

Those assets are, in large part, the church buildings themselves. They are not liquid assets. Indeed, they are even more illiquid than most other real estate, because the market for church buildings, all of which are constructed to meet the needs and functions of a particular faith, is quite limited. A lot of people are under the mistaken impression that the Catholic Church has vast piles of money sitting around in a Scrooge McDuck-style money bin. Whereas if you look at the balance sheets of your average Catholic parish or diocese, you'll see that their budgets are relatively modest, they sometimes operate in the red, and to the extent that they have liquid assets, they're generally set aside to fulfill pension obligations. Even at the Vatican level, the annual operating budget is roughly equivalent to a mid-sized U.S. city, and expenses tend to be fairly close to income. The art in its museums is often mistakenly viewed as if it could be sold off like gold or diamonds, but the Vatican actually acts more as a conservator than an owner of the pieces. It does not consider itself at liberty to sell the art, because it was entrusted to the Vatican's care under the expectation that it would be perpetually maintained. In that sense, the art truly is priceless; it can't be sold.

annoyingnoob 6y ago
One should be able to leverage some amount of value of those assets for loans. When you have assets you have options. And I'm sure they have lots of followers that will give money until it hurts to keep their Church from failing - a business can't ask its employees to fund things for a while in the same way a church can ask its followers. The church has options that others do not have and lobbying should not come first.
Theory5 6y ago
"Those assets are, in large part, the church buildings themselves. They are not liquid assets. Indeed, they are even more illiquid than most other real estate, because the market for church buildings, all of which are constructed to meet the needs and functions of a particular faith, is quite limited." I don't think that's true. Years ago in Boston MA during one of the big legal where church leaders were accused of child molestation/rape/sex abuse, the church was ordered to pay $85 million dollars to the victims, some 260 people I think. They took short term loans to pay that, then sold 15 buildings that netted them over 100 million dollars. One of the biggest properties was the archbishop's residence. They didn't tap into the normal petitioners funds and similar, just took out some loans, took some insuance payouts to cover the 85 mil, then less then a year later sold those 15 buildings for over 100 mil. The building packages were thought to be worth at minimum $1 mil per acre. This was between 03 and 04. In 2020, they were able to move around $2 billion to shield those assets from being taken into account during more recent sex abuse payouts. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2020-01-08/the-catholic-church-s-strategy-to-limit-payouts-to-abuse-victims https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2020-01-08/the-catho... They sure as shit can liquidate, or move very large amounts of assets around to protect their own organization. https://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/10/us/church-in-boston-to-pay-85-million-in-abuse-lawsuits.html https://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/10/us/church-in-boston-to-pa... They're not a small business in any sense of the word, and they took money they don't need, seeing as it can take them less than a year to sell $100 mil+ worth of assets to cover payments to 260 sex abuse victims 15+ years ago, or move around 2 billion worth of assets in a ploy to try and reduce what they'll have to pay to victims of these leaders.
rdsnsca 6y ago
Three church buildings have been sold within 20 miles of me the last few years. One is now a brewery / bar, one a town library and the last two offices, They all still look like churches outside, one just has to think outside the box.
annoyingnoob 6y ago
In Santa Barbara you can find the Church of Skatan. A skateboard shop built in a church building.

true_religion 6y ago

30 billion would but them at 1/10th the net wealth of Walmart. They are a 2000 year old charity. They rich compared to other charities (e.g. the Red Cross has 1.8 billion net worth ), but even a for profit department store chain like Walmart can accumulate more assets.

mrbonner 6y ago

Not as enormous as the Mormon church my friend. I read from an WJS article that they have to the upper of $100B.