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Basically our system is, we want every country to be able to elect their government through some sort of democracy. China's system is, we have a cabal of secre

Basically our system is, we want every country to be able to elect their government through some sort of democracy. China's system is, we have a cabal of secretive elites that run the show and they can't be elected or unelected by the people. Which one should be the world standard?

eirini1 6y ago
>Basically our system is, we want every country to be able to elect their government through some sort of democracy. you are leaving aside the fact that your system also involves an armed invasion by the USA if a certain country does something the USA doesn't like.
- throw_this_one 6y ago
  You're basically saying that we should be non-interventionalist. So if a country gets taken over by a dictator, no big. If they kick out our companies and take our tech, no big. If they develop nukes so that they can hold us at ransom, no big. Naive view of the world to think what happens outside your neighborhood is of no concern for you.
  - buran77 6y ago
    > Naive view of the world The irony is blinding here. The kind of entitled opinion that can only be supported by strong ignorance and is only remedied by education. Every one of your arguments can be refuted in half a line just like in all of your other comments. And you'd reject every one of your arguments if they were used against you. Are Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Yemen, etc. better off now than they were before being bombed to shit to "fix their dictator or terrorist problem"? Is Iran better off after making a deal with the US and sticking to it? Central America after all the "fight the communists" regime changes? When a country gets taken over by a leader undemocratically elected with a minority of votes should there be a military intervention to fix it? How about when you spy (with every advantage that entails, economic, political, or military) on every other country and citizen on the planet? When you blackmail entire countries to get your economic interests? When your citizens are illegally shot on the streets and abused by corporations but their voice means next to nothing? In the meantime China has seen the biggest economic boom any developed country has ever managed to maintain ever so the US feels threatened and ups the "dictator-like" measures against the world. There's a reason you use a throwaway account. Your opinions aren't controversial, they're embarrassingly immature, uneducated, ignorant of the realities of the world we live in and you don't want that to rub of on you actual account. I guess you're not at risk of being shot in the back by police (or ever reading a book instead of an Alex Jones podcast) so you are still free to maintain this happy view of your "we're definitely not acting like the dictator of the world" system.
    - throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
      > Are Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Yemen, etc. better off now Totally agree with you. The US needs to grow up. > In the meantime China has seen the biggest economic boom any developed country has ever managed to maintain ever so the US feels threatened and ups the "dictator-like" measures against the world No, it's because china does not feel it needs to follow any laws ie. clamping down in hong kong against the very treaty it signed. For one example. Territorial grab in the south china seas. etc. > The kind of entitled opinion that can only be supported by strong ignorance and is only remedied by education > Your [are] embarrassingly immature, uneducated, ignorant of the realities of the world This is unacceptable. I've flagged your post.
    - throw_this_one 6y ago
      Lol hilarious. I’m voicing the reality of the situation, in that the world is not a nice place when you let things fester all over the world. China has done great at mobilizing their population, definitely. But don’t you worry that having unlimited power in a secretive cabal (CCP) is a bit dangerous? I disagreed vehemently with Iraq. If the US just lets any place fester into an autocracy, then that autocracy has the base to expand their sphere. So instead of the US capitalist sphere with its obvious but controllable problems... we’ll have your world where strongmen can expand their spheres. In those spheres, our businesses can be pushed out or taken control of without rule of law. So our country diminishes and eventually collapses. So you sit on your high horse and play armchair quarterback, when in reality you benefit from the imperfect hegemony the US established for much of the world. Countries in our sphere have benefitted greatly: SK, Japan, Europe, Taiwan, India, Mexico, etc.
buran77 6y ago
> some sort of democracy Yeah... "some sort" says it all doesn't it? It's a much deeper discussion that this topic or medium affords. But that very same system took away through various means millions of citizens' right to vote, and routinely generates situations where the will of the majority is overridden by a minority. And there's a lot more where that came from. You are given just enough power to feel in control but not enough to be in control. You have a voice but nobody really has to listen. I grant you that, there are clearly far more freedoms in the western world in general than in China. But there's nothing better about US's system of values than say the Icelandic one (quite visibly the opposite actually). But... It all boils down to one simple fact: the US imposes it's own views on the rest of the world via military and economic measures against anyone who doesn't comply, doesn't have anything truly of value to trade, or threatens that military and economic superiority. See Saudi Arabia, one of US's closest ally vs. China, one of US's biggest enemy. Both have the same values yet get very different ends of the stick. There's nothing making this system better other than the military and economic force behind it. And I'll leave you with a bit of foods for thought: large scale organized crime groups also elected their leaders through "some sort of democracy", and have economic and "military" power to impose their will even over entire countries. What does this say about their system of values? Must be tip top.
- throw_this_one 6y ago
  Some sort of democracy means the various types of democracy deployed in the world. Switzerland to US, whatever. When did it take away citizens right to vote? You're talking about felons not being able to vote? Yeah I agree with getting rid of that, getting rid of gerrymandering etc. You can be a critic of implementations the system and yet still support the underlying mechanism. You're supposed to feel like you have a say and not BE in control. Yes minority groups will have less power, that is fine. "There's nothing making this system better..." "I grant you there are clearly far more freedoms in the western..." The US will basically spread democracy and capitalism. True capitalism is bad for the entrenched CCP, Russia oligarchs, etc because the US multinationals will inject their capital in the system and take control of everything. Of course they want to keep power. I think there should be some guarantees of the country keeping some ownership over their production. CCP and Russia are trying to lock down their systems and increase their competitive output, so that when they clash with the West they can compete on value/innovation. I'm not saying the system is perfect, it's obviously coopted by different groups. But it is as close to perfect as exists in the world today.

eirini1 6y ago

>Basically our system is, we want every country to be able to elect their government through some sort of democracy. you are leaving aside the fact that your system also involves an armed invasion by the USA if a certain country does something the USA doesn't like.

throw_this_one 6y ago
You're basically saying that we should be non-interventionalist. So if a country gets taken over by a dictator, no big. If they kick out our companies and take our tech, no big. If they develop nukes so that they can hold us at ransom, no big. Naive view of the world to think what happens outside your neighborhood is of no concern for you.
- buran77 6y ago
  > Naive view of the world The irony is blinding here. The kind of entitled opinion that can only be supported by strong ignorance and is only remedied by education. Every one of your arguments can be refuted in half a line just like in all of your other comments. And you'd reject every one of your arguments if they were used against you. Are Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Yemen, etc. better off now than they were before being bombed to shit to "fix their dictator or terrorist problem"? Is Iran better off after making a deal with the US and sticking to it? Central America after all the "fight the communists" regime changes? When a country gets taken over by a leader undemocratically elected with a minority of votes should there be a military intervention to fix it? How about when you spy (with every advantage that entails, economic, political, or military) on every other country and citizen on the planet? When you blackmail entire countries to get your economic interests? When your citizens are illegally shot on the streets and abused by corporations but their voice means next to nothing? In the meantime China has seen the biggest economic boom any developed country has ever managed to maintain ever so the US feels threatened and ups the "dictator-like" measures against the world. There's a reason you use a throwaway account. Your opinions aren't controversial, they're embarrassingly immature, uneducated, ignorant of the realities of the world we live in and you don't want that to rub of on you actual account. I guess you're not at risk of being shot in the back by police (or ever reading a book instead of an Alex Jones podcast) so you are still free to maintain this happy view of your "we're definitely not acting like the dictator of the world" system.
  - throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
    > Are Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Yemen, etc. better off now Totally agree with you. The US needs to grow up. > In the meantime China has seen the biggest economic boom any developed country has ever managed to maintain ever so the US feels threatened and ups the "dictator-like" measures against the world No, it's because china does not feel it needs to follow any laws ie. clamping down in hong kong against the very treaty it signed. For one example. Territorial grab in the south china seas. etc. > The kind of entitled opinion that can only be supported by strong ignorance and is only remedied by education > Your [are] embarrassingly immature, uneducated, ignorant of the realities of the world This is unacceptable. I've flagged your post.
  - throw_this_one 6y ago
    Lol hilarious. I’m voicing the reality of the situation, in that the world is not a nice place when you let things fester all over the world. China has done great at mobilizing their population, definitely. But don’t you worry that having unlimited power in a secretive cabal (CCP) is a bit dangerous? I disagreed vehemently with Iraq. If the US just lets any place fester into an autocracy, then that autocracy has the base to expand their sphere. So instead of the US capitalist sphere with its obvious but controllable problems... we’ll have your world where strongmen can expand their spheres. In those spheres, our businesses can be pushed out or taken control of without rule of law. So our country diminishes and eventually collapses. So you sit on your high horse and play armchair quarterback, when in reality you benefit from the imperfect hegemony the US established for much of the world. Countries in our sphere have benefitted greatly: SK, Japan, Europe, Taiwan, India, Mexico, etc.

buran77 6y ago

> some sort of democracy Yeah... "some sort" says it all doesn't it? It's a much deeper discussion that this topic or medium affords. But that very same system took away through various means millions of citizens' right to vote, and routinely generates situations where the will of the majority is overridden by a minority. And there's a lot more where that came from. You are given just enough power to feel in control but not enough to be in control. You have a voice but nobody really has to listen. I grant you that, there are clearly far more freedoms in the western world in general than in China. But there's nothing better about US's system of values than say the Icelandic one (quite visibly the opposite actually). But... It all boils down to one simple fact: the US imposes it's own views on the rest of the world via military and economic measures against anyone who doesn't comply, doesn't have anything truly of value to trade, or threatens that military and economic superiority. See Saudi Arabia, one of US's closest ally vs. China, one of US's biggest enemy. Both have the same values yet get very different ends of the stick. There's nothing making this system better other than the military and economic force behind it. And I'll leave you with a bit of foods for thought: large scale organized crime groups also elected their leaders through "some sort of democracy", and have economic and "military" power to impose their will even over entire countries. What does this say about their system of values? Must be tip top.

throw_this_one 6y ago
Some sort of democracy means the various types of democracy deployed in the world. Switzerland to US, whatever. When did it take away citizens right to vote? You're talking about felons not being able to vote? Yeah I agree with getting rid of that, getting rid of gerrymandering etc. You can be a critic of implementations the system and yet still support the underlying mechanism. You're supposed to feel like you have a say and not BE in control. Yes minority groups will have less power, that is fine. "There's nothing making this system better..." "I grant you there are clearly far more freedoms in the western..." The US will basically spread democracy and capitalism. True capitalism is bad for the entrenched CCP, Russia oligarchs, etc because the US multinationals will inject their capital in the system and take control of everything. Of course they want to keep power. I think there should be some guarantees of the country keeping some ownership over their production. CCP and Russia are trying to lock down their systems and increase their competitive output, so that when they clash with the West they can compete on value/innovation. I'm not saying the system is perfect, it's obviously coopted by different groups. But it is as close to perfect as exists in the world today.