8 ms·

Good. Uber is trying to weasel out of this in Switzerland by letting drivers set price but it won't fly.

hn_throwaway_99 6y ago
I don't think of that as "weaseling out of" at all. If anything, I've been arguing that the single primary thing that nullifies Uber's "they're all just contractors!!" argument is that drivers have no involvement in setting the price. If drivers can set the price though, and actually put in fair bids that they believe are necessary to pay their costs and make an acceptable profit, then it does become much more of a true marketplace and the "all drivers are employees" argument holds a lot less water IMO.
- Klinky 6y ago
  Then why isn't this the policy across all territories? Weaseling out sounds correct if they are only doing it to get around local laws.
  - manquer 6y ago
    If the laws are not strong enough for them to be forced to do this in bigger markets, then perhaps the laws should be changed? Depending on companies to self govern is not sustainable even if Uber does not exploit this, the next company will. Such loopholes need to be closed, putting on pressure on some companies is just band aid if they actually change, if not just effort wasted on the wrong thing. I don't buy regulatory capture as a valid argument either. To make sure companies do the right thing strong regulations and laws need to be in place, to make sure regulatory bodies and lawmakers are not influenced, people should have more power in government than money does.
    - Klinky 6y ago
      I agree with pretty much all you said. Mainly, I do not find it very genuine that they only implemented this policy, likely with extra effort, in one territory. This feels like a play to capture market share and increase growth, even if it doesn't match their existing business model.
- nefasti 6y ago
  Yes, many times this. The gig economy right now is just a ruse to circumvent labor laws in many countries, incredible bad how it took this long for countries to regulate this.
flak48 6y ago
What should the distinction be between an employee and contractor then?
- bfdm 6y ago
  There is a lot of legal precedent for this distinction that depends on your jurisdiction, but largely boils down to how much control the worker has over the work. Uber and the like claim the workers choose when to work, how much, whether to accept gigs etc. But this is part of the problem: offering gigs at a set rate as take it or leave it is insufficient control. A real contractor would be able to negotiate and adjust this rate. Uber drivers are employees delivering services core to the function of the business.
  - ApolloFortyNine 6y ago
    >Uber and the like claim the workers choose when to work, how much, whether to accept gigs etc. But this is part of the problem: offering gigs at a set rate as take it or leave it is insufficient control. A real contractor would be able to negotiate and adjust this rate. Isn't it already built into the system though? If no one drives, surge pricing goes up until someone accepts the ride. Honestly I see no way individual workers setting the price wouldn't lead to lower prices than you see now. Drivers would have the option to either sit and make 0 money or cut their rate by 10 cents and make some money. The way Uber sets prices pretty much mandates a minimum. If the minimum doesn't cover your maintenance costs, you shouldn't be driving for Uber.
  - NovemberWhiskey 6y ago
    This is where the whole discussion spirals out of control usually. Uber maintains its business isn't transportation - it's facilitating a market place for transportation. Nonsense, say its detractors, you're running a car service. It's clear that Uber has gotten into some activities that undermine its own story, like loans for drivers to buy cars and insurance. It's also clear that Uber drivers don't look like regular employees in many ways - like: they decide their own hours; they can refuse trips; they can contract with other, competing ride-share companies simultaneously. I don't know how people generate certainty in their opinions on this topic.
TomMarius 6y ago
I am really really afraid this will make governments consider IT contractors employees. I hate this.
- vtkacenko 6y ago
  Why are you afraid of this?
  - HideousKojima 6y ago
    Presumably because companies will be much less willing to hire on contractors because of the extra costs for benefits etc.
  - username90 6y ago
    Not everyone wants to be an employee.
  - controversy 6y ago
    You can make more money as a contractor. The deal is contractors get paid more to take in the risk of being fired. If you are ok with this, you get as liquid money the cash that would have gone to benefits. So I bill for about 200k USD. My wife gets our medical insurance. I take home about 140k after taxes. If I were an employee, I’d only take home 100k after taxes.
    - NotSammyHagar 6y ago
      There's only a very small group of workers like in it who could benefit from being a contractor. But there is a vast number of lowly paid workers who are devestated because they can't get benefits. How do we trade off these things?
      - controversy 6y ago
        My answer is to allow the market to float with as little regulation as possible. What perverse incentives exist due to regulatory externalities?

I don't think of that as "weaseling out of" at all. If anything, I've been arguing that the single primary thing that nullifies Uber's "they're all just contractors!!" argument is that drivers have no involvement in setting the price. If drivers can set the price though, and actually put in fair bids that they believe are necessary to pay their costs and make an acceptable profit, then it does become much more of a true marketplace and the "all drivers are employees" argument holds a lot less water IMO.

Klinky 6y ago
Then why isn't this the policy across all territories? Weaseling out sounds correct if they are only doing it to get around local laws.
- manquer 6y ago
  If the laws are not strong enough for them to be forced to do this in bigger markets, then perhaps the laws should be changed? Depending on companies to self govern is not sustainable even if Uber does not exploit this, the next company will. Such loopholes need to be closed, putting on pressure on some companies is just band aid if they actually change, if not just effort wasted on the wrong thing. I don't buy regulatory capture as a valid argument either. To make sure companies do the right thing strong regulations and laws need to be in place, to make sure regulatory bodies and lawmakers are not influenced, people should have more power in government than money does.
  - Klinky 6y ago
    I agree with pretty much all you said. Mainly, I do not find it very genuine that they only implemented this policy, likely with extra effort, in one territory. This feels like a play to capture market share and increase growth, even if it doesn't match their existing business model.
nefasti 6y ago
Yes, many times this. The gig economy right now is just a ruse to circumvent labor laws in many countries, incredible bad how it took this long for countries to regulate this.

flak48 6y ago

What should the distinction be between an employee and contractor then?

bfdm 6y ago
There is a lot of legal precedent for this distinction that depends on your jurisdiction, but largely boils down to how much control the worker has over the work. Uber and the like claim the workers choose when to work, how much, whether to accept gigs etc. But this is part of the problem: offering gigs at a set rate as take it or leave it is insufficient control. A real contractor would be able to negotiate and adjust this rate. Uber drivers are employees delivering services core to the function of the business.
- ApolloFortyNine 6y ago
  >Uber and the like claim the workers choose when to work, how much, whether to accept gigs etc. But this is part of the problem: offering gigs at a set rate as take it or leave it is insufficient control. A real contractor would be able to negotiate and adjust this rate. Isn't it already built into the system though? If no one drives, surge pricing goes up until someone accepts the ride. Honestly I see no way individual workers setting the price wouldn't lead to lower prices than you see now. Drivers would have the option to either sit and make 0 money or cut their rate by 10 cents and make some money. The way Uber sets prices pretty much mandates a minimum. If the minimum doesn't cover your maintenance costs, you shouldn't be driving for Uber.
- NovemberWhiskey 6y ago
  This is where the whole discussion spirals out of control usually. Uber maintains its business isn't transportation - it's facilitating a market place for transportation. Nonsense, say its detractors, you're running a car service. It's clear that Uber has gotten into some activities that undermine its own story, like loans for drivers to buy cars and insurance. It's also clear that Uber drivers don't look like regular employees in many ways - like: they decide their own hours; they can refuse trips; they can contract with other, competing ride-share companies simultaneously. I don't know how people generate certainty in their opinions on this topic.

TomMarius 6y ago

I am really really afraid this will make governments consider IT contractors employees. I hate this.

vtkacenko 6y ago
Why are you afraid of this?
- HideousKojima 6y ago
  Presumably because companies will be much less willing to hire on contractors because of the extra costs for benefits etc.
- username90 6y ago
  Not everyone wants to be an employee.
- controversy 6y ago
  You can make more money as a contractor. The deal is contractors get paid more to take in the risk of being fired. If you are ok with this, you get as liquid money the cash that would have gone to benefits. So I bill for about 200k USD. My wife gets our medical insurance. I take home about 140k after taxes. If I were an employee, I’d only take home 100k after taxes.
  - NotSammyHagar 6y ago
    There's only a very small group of workers like in it who could benefit from being a contractor. But there is a vast number of lowly paid workers who are devestated because they can't get benefits. How do we trade off these things?
    - controversy 6y ago
      My answer is to allow the market to float with as little regulation as possible. What perverse incentives exist due to regulatory externalities?