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> Have a look through history, and you'll find many examples where this statement is absolutely not true. Granted, but this is in response to a side comment of

> Have a look through history, and you'll find many examples where this statement is absolutely not true. Granted, but this is in response to a side comment of mine that was not part of my main argument. > you're really just arguing semantics False. I'm arguing the difference between direct, automatic outcomes of speech, and outcomes that only happen because of the evil that was already in someone's heart.

haswell 6y ago
> False. I'm arguing the difference between direct, automatic outcomes of speech, and outcomes that only happen because of the evil that was already in someone's heart. I'm really not sure what you're trying to argue any more. Where did the evil come from? Maybe it was learned by upbringing. Maybe it was born out of traumatic experiences. Nature vs. nurture and all of that. So can you expand on what you see as the material difference between speech, the source of that speech (evil heart), the source of that evil heart (upbringing?). And how any of that makes a difference to the end result? What do you say about someone who unintentionally and with good meaning aligns themselves with hate (e.g. the All Lives Matter folks)? The things said may not be born of evil, but the end result is just the same. You haven't successfully clarified what exactly you're trying to argue. Edit: I should clarify - I think it's useful to examine the evil heart, and the source of that, as it helps us understand where the speech comes from, but ultimately, none of that changes the direct or indirect result of the speech itself.
- PaulStatezny 6y ago
  If I say, "programmers suck", and then you decide that you agree and you're gonna go kill a bunch of programmers... am I responsible for the murderous violent hatred in your heart? Of course not. But that's the same argument that's being made here. And it's obviously nonsense. There's a reason that there is a legal (U.S.) precedent that allows for speech, but not directly telling people to commit violent acts. Of course I am culpable if I tell you to go kill programmers. If I didn't say that and you decide to do it, it's ridiculous to hold me responsible. I hope that clarifies my perspective sufficiently.

haswell 6y ago

> False. I'm arguing the difference between direct, automatic outcomes of speech, and outcomes that only happen because of the evil that was already in someone's heart. I'm really not sure what you're trying to argue any more. Where did the evil come from? Maybe it was learned by upbringing. Maybe it was born out of traumatic experiences. Nature vs. nurture and all of that. So can you expand on what you see as the material difference between speech, the source of that speech (evil heart), the source of that evil heart (upbringing?). And how any of that makes a difference to the end result? What do you say about someone who unintentionally and with good meaning aligns themselves with hate (e.g. the All Lives Matter folks)? The things said may not be born of evil, but the end result is just the same. You haven't successfully clarified what exactly you're trying to argue. Edit: I should clarify - I think it's useful to examine the evil heart, and the source of that, as it helps us understand where the speech comes from, but ultimately, none of that changes the direct or indirect result of the speech itself.

PaulStatezny 6y ago
If I say, "programmers suck", and then you decide that you agree and you're gonna go kill a bunch of programmers... am I responsible for the murderous violent hatred in your heart? Of course not. But that's the same argument that's being made here. And it's obviously nonsense. There's a reason that there is a legal (U.S.) precedent that allows for speech, but not directly telling people to commit violent acts. Of course I am culpable if I tell you to go kill programmers. If I didn't say that and you decide to do it, it's ridiculous to hold me responsible. I hope that clarifies my perspective sufficiently.