5 ms·

> creating a massive government bureaucracy Huh? This whole program was put together and executed in a matter of days, and mostly via the bureaucracy of the IR

> creating a massive government bureaucracy Huh? This whole program was put together and executed in a matter of days, and mostly via the bureaucracy of the IRS as I understand it. The point of a UBI is in part that it is explicitly not means tested to avoid "welfare trap" incentives, and it's tremendously cheap to implement relative to, say, food stamps or what's left of cash welfare in the US.

kortilla 6y ago
The reply is referring to a UBI program where the rich pay it back in taxes so it effectively becomes means tested.
- derefr 6y ago
  That's not what "means-tested" means. "Means-testing"—as in welfare programs—specifically refers to payouts that have cliffs, that create bad incentives like people choosing to not get jobs because they'd lose access to the welfare payment, and end up with less money than they get with no job. Progressive taxation has no cliffs; there is never† a tax-related reason to refuse to take a higher-paying job. You'll always be able to keep some of the additional pay. Thus, it's not "means-tested." † Unless there's a 100% tax bracket. But I don't think there's any country that bothers with these, because of the clearly-wonky disincentives.
  - clairity 6y ago
    > '"Means-testing"—as in welfare programs—specifically refers to payouts that have cliffs...' means-testing doesn't imply cliffs, only checking (e.g., 'means' of otherwise survival) before providing. progressive application is simply the continuous form of means-testing, rather than discontinuous cliffs (which are conceptually simpler, but create adverse incentives). frankly, every fiscal program should phase in/out with income/wealth over the whole range (i.e., be universally progressive), rather than discontinously and/or regressively (e.g., payroll taxes). in this regard, UBI simply says that instead of just being continuous, let's also make the payout function a constant.
  - jlokier 6y ago
    > there is never† a tax-related reason to refuse to take a higher-paying job This is usually true but not always. Where I live, if you as a self-employed contractor make revenue over the VAT threshold you must start charging VAT. If the clients are VAT registered business, they won't mind, they can reclaim it. But if they are not VAT registered, or if they are regular people not businesses, your price will effectively increase by 20% for them. To avoid losing business with the people who cannot reclaim the VAT, you may decide to lower the prices you charge to compensate. That's a cliff. You can be better off turning down a higher-paying job (such as a 3 month contract) that would put you over the VAT threshold, if you are close to it and would have to lower prices to everyone else to compensate, depending on your line of business.
    - viklove 6y ago
      The commenter you're replying to is definitely talking about the US
      - jlokier 6y ago
        I think they were talking about progressive taxation anywhere, however just to compete the point: In the US, sales tax is a bit like VAT in the EU. As with VAT, there's a registration threshold, and if you reach it you may need to lower your prices to end customers. The sales tax registration threshold rules are called "nexus", and are a lot more complicated than VAT!

kortilla 6y ago

The reply is referring to a UBI program where the rich pay it back in taxes so it effectively becomes means tested.

derefr 6y ago
That's not what "means-tested" means. "Means-testing"—as in welfare programs—specifically refers to payouts that have cliffs, that create bad incentives like people choosing to not get jobs because they'd lose access to the welfare payment, and end up with less money than they get with no job. Progressive taxation has no cliffs; there is never† a tax-related reason to refuse to take a higher-paying job. You'll always be able to keep some of the additional pay. Thus, it's not "means-tested." † Unless there's a 100% tax bracket. But I don't think there's any country that bothers with these, because of the clearly-wonky disincentives.
- clairity 6y ago
  > '"Means-testing"—as in welfare programs—specifically refers to payouts that have cliffs...' means-testing doesn't imply cliffs, only checking (e.g., 'means' of otherwise survival) before providing. progressive application is simply the continuous form of means-testing, rather than discontinuous cliffs (which are conceptually simpler, but create adverse incentives). frankly, every fiscal program should phase in/out with income/wealth over the whole range (i.e., be universally progressive), rather than discontinously and/or regressively (e.g., payroll taxes). in this regard, UBI simply says that instead of just being continuous, let's also make the payout function a constant.
- jlokier 6y ago
  > there is never† a tax-related reason to refuse to take a higher-paying job This is usually true but not always. Where I live, if you as a self-employed contractor make revenue over the VAT threshold you must start charging VAT. If the clients are VAT registered business, they won't mind, they can reclaim it. But if they are not VAT registered, or if they are regular people not businesses, your price will effectively increase by 20% for them. To avoid losing business with the people who cannot reclaim the VAT, you may decide to lower the prices you charge to compensate. That's a cliff. You can be better off turning down a higher-paying job (such as a 3 month contract) that would put you over the VAT threshold, if you are close to it and would have to lower prices to everyone else to compensate, depending on your line of business.
  - viklove 6y ago
    The commenter you're replying to is definitely talking about the US
    - jlokier 6y ago
      I think they were talking about progressive taxation anywhere, however just to compete the point: In the US, sales tax is a bit like VAT in the EU. As with VAT, there's a registration threshold, and if you reach it you may need to lower your prices to end customers. The sales tax registration threshold rules are called "nexus", and are a lot more complicated than VAT!