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"Equating the BLM movement with groupthink is actually groupthink." No, BLM one of the best examples of groupthink. I support BLM, specifically with respect t

by jariel 6y ago

"Equating the BLM movement with groupthink is actually groupthink." No, BLM one of the best examples of groupthink. I support BLM, specifically with respect to the notion of police violence against, specifically, Black people. But the BLM institution itself, is founded and driven by some ideologues with whom I disagree quite a lot. There are many public events and actions 'in the name of BLM' with which I disagree. The reason it's 'groupthink' and possibly oppressive, is because I'm not allowed to disagree with any of, without facing social consquence. To disagree with 'some' BLM issue, is to disagree with the the very notion of 'Black Lives Matter'. BLM is one of the most incidentally brilliant bits of communication in modern history - take a nominal, unassailable factual truth, like 'Black Lives Matter' - that nobody, but nobody can reasonably disagree with ... and then take that and do whatever you want 'in the name of BLM' - and you can pursue your agenda with vigour and aggression, knowing that you can smackdown anyone who disagrees with you with the moniker of 'racist'. The F1 had a race in which the drivers and teams 'knelt' before the start, but the CNN article was not in the affirmative 'some drivers support BLM' - no, it was in the negative: "Formula One drivers divided as several choose not to kneel in support of Black Lives Matter movement" [1]. No longer is this a movement which you get to support, but rather, if you do not support the movement, your actions will be made public and you will have to answer to them. This headline is pretty much on-point with respect to the nature of the article about 'The Prisoner' - though I should add, as having seen every episode in the original series, I disagree with the author's claim that it's about 'one kind of authority', I think the message is broader than that. [1] https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/05/motorsport/f1-austrian-grand-prix-drivers-kneel-and-stand-hamilton-bottas-spt-intl/index.html#:~:text=(CNN)%20The%20Formula%20One%20grid,the%20Black%20Lives%20Matter%20movement https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/05/motorsport/f1-austrian-grand-....

pstuart 6y ago
You're complaining about a CNN headline. That's on CNN (which I abhor), and is typical of media in trying to get clicks and attention. Nobody should be forced to take a knee, however, it is a simple gesture so it shouldn't be a big deal. Remember that this was originally done instead of standing and saluting the US flag, which is first class groupthink. A list of your disagreements with BLM would be interesting to see.
- jariel 6y ago
  "Nobody should be forced to take a knee, however, it is a simple gesture so it shouldn't be a big deal. " These words in a different context could be a little scary though and it kind of makes my point: "Hey, don't you care about Black People, then Bend the Knee and support the cause, it's only a 'small gesture' if you don't do it, people will question you'. CNN doesn't just write 'a headline' - they write 'all of their headlines' to very aggressively promote the narratives that interest them. Much like some other news outlets, they are incredibly influential. The F1 drivers who did not 'kneel' were forced to 'explain themselves' in a public statement. FYI BLM's founders are Marxists, and I disagree quite a lot with Marxism, so that's for starters. BLM is demanding 'reparations', another thing I disagree with. [1] I disagree with the notion that 'police brutality' is mostly a racial issue, as the science seems to indicate that cops in the US are generally more aggressive across the board - and while it's slightly tilted worse for Black people, the 'racial' aspect to BLM makes us miss the 'bigger problem' which is that it's mostly a general issue. I disagree deeply, and actually find offensive, Colin Kaps' statement that 'July 4th is a celebration of White Supremacy'. A very 'big issue' with which I disagree, absent from their rhetoric is the fact that there is a lot violence within the Black community in the US, far in excess of anything else in any other group, or any other civilised country. The #1 cause of death for Black men up to the age of 44 is 'violence other Black men' [2] (this is from the CDC, remember the group we're trying to get more attention due to pandemic), about 8 000 black people are killed in violence every year. Case and point, 5 days after the police murdered Freddie Grey ... in Chicago there was >150 people involved in shootings, 105 shot, and 15 killed.[3] This is really sad and tragic, and yet, nobody seems to care. Essentially, people claim to care deeply about 'Black Lives' and yet are seemingly unconcerned about the actual, tangible and terrible things happening daily, while focusing on issue of policing which I believe is periphery to the situation to the point that if we could solve the problem of 'mass violence' and deplorable poverty in such communities (very hard to do!), then the issue of policing would mostly go away. Some general things I do support are 'decarceration' and more investment in the community. So I notionally support BLM, and wish there was a lot more effort on the issue towards the real things that materially matter, I actually believe the BLM movement specifically with respect to policing is a side-show, the ugly problems are more complicated. By the way, I think this is the majority view. Have a look at this Pew data [4], it's really interesting and it shows that most ethnic groups (White/Black/Asian) are actually pretty similar and consistent in their support for direct intervention into the community, and a lot less so for 'protests' for example. Very few people seem to think that protests matter. I would not participate in any BLM related activities after Colin Kap's statement about July 4th being a 'Celebration of White Supremacy' - I find that offensive and I would be wary of any organisation to which I belong, asking me to do so. What's not quite mentioned in the article, or even evident in the 'Prisoner' series ... is that many things that these systems want to project (maybe civility, responsibility, getting along etc.) are not bad at all. They're quite good things, so it's easy for people promoting these systems to get caught up in the easy nature of the ideology. And finally - to your point - nationalism is definitely a form of groupthink. I don't think for a second anyone should have to 'stand' for the national anthem. If someone wants to sit in the locker room, or 'not participate' this is 100% fine, and a perfect example of true non-conformity because it's not antagonistic either. And surely, Nationalism 'getting out of hand' is way more scary than any kind of BLM activity that I might disagree with. [1] https://populardemocracy.org/news/publications/freedom-thrive-reimagining-safety-security-our-communities https://populardemocracy.org/news/publications/freedom-thriv... [2] https://www.cdc.gov/healthequity/lcod/men/2017/all-races-origins/index.htm https://www.cdc.gov/healthequity/lcod/men/2017/all-races-ori... [3] https://chicago.suntimes.com/crime/2020/6/20/21297470/chicago-fathers-day-weekend-shootings-homicide-gun-violence-june-19-22-104-shot https://chicago.suntimes.com/crime/2020/6/20/21297470/chicag... [3] https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2020/06/12/amid-protests-majorities-across-racial-and-ethnic-groups-express-support-for-the-black-lives-matter-movement/ https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2020/06/12/amid-protests-maj...

by jariel 6y ago

pstuart 6y ago

You're complaining about a CNN headline. That's on CNN (which I abhor), and is typical of media in trying to get clicks and attention. Nobody should be forced to take a knee, however, it is a simple gesture so it shouldn't be a big deal. Remember that this was originally done instead of standing and saluting the US flag, which is first class groupthink. A list of your disagreements with BLM would be interesting to see.

jariel 6y ago
"Nobody should be forced to take a knee, however, it is a simple gesture so it shouldn't be a big deal. " These words in a different context could be a little scary though and it kind of makes my point: "Hey, don't you care about Black People, then Bend the Knee and support the cause, it's only a 'small gesture' if you don't do it, people will question you'. CNN doesn't just write 'a headline' - they write 'all of their headlines' to very aggressively promote the narratives that interest them. Much like some other news outlets, they are incredibly influential. The F1 drivers who did not 'kneel' were forced to 'explain themselves' in a public statement. FYI BLM's founders are Marxists, and I disagree quite a lot with Marxism, so that's for starters. BLM is demanding 'reparations', another thing I disagree with. [1] I disagree with the notion that 'police brutality' is mostly a racial issue, as the science seems to indicate that cops in the US are generally more aggressive across the board - and while it's slightly tilted worse for Black people, the 'racial' aspect to BLM makes us miss the 'bigger problem' which is that it's mostly a general issue. I disagree deeply, and actually find offensive, Colin Kaps' statement that 'July 4th is a celebration of White Supremacy'. A very 'big issue' with which I disagree, absent from their rhetoric is the fact that there is a lot violence within the Black community in the US, far in excess of anything else in any other group, or any other civilised country. The #1 cause of death for Black men up to the age of 44 is 'violence other Black men' [2] (this is from the CDC, remember the group we're trying to get more attention due to pandemic), about 8 000 black people are killed in violence every year. Case and point, 5 days after the police murdered Freddie Grey ... in Chicago there was >150 people involved in shootings, 105 shot, and 15 killed.[3] This is really sad and tragic, and yet, nobody seems to care. Essentially, people claim to care deeply about 'Black Lives' and yet are seemingly unconcerned about the actual, tangible and terrible things happening daily, while focusing on issue of policing which I believe is periphery to the situation to the point that if we could solve the problem of 'mass violence' and deplorable poverty in such communities (very hard to do!), then the issue of policing would mostly go away. Some general things I do support are 'decarceration' and more investment in the community. So I notionally support BLM, and wish there was a lot more effort on the issue towards the real things that materially matter, I actually believe the BLM movement specifically with respect to policing is a side-show, the ugly problems are more complicated. By the way, I think this is the majority view. Have a look at this Pew data [4], it's really interesting and it shows that most ethnic groups (White/Black/Asian) are actually pretty similar and consistent in their support for direct intervention into the community, and a lot less so for 'protests' for example. Very few people seem to think that protests matter. I would not participate in any BLM related activities after Colin Kap's statement about July 4th being a 'Celebration of White Supremacy' - I find that offensive and I would be wary of any organisation to which I belong, asking me to do so. What's not quite mentioned in the article, or even evident in the 'Prisoner' series ... is that many things that these systems want to project (maybe civility, responsibility, getting along etc.) are not bad at all. They're quite good things, so it's easy for people promoting these systems to get caught up in the easy nature of the ideology. And finally - to your point - nationalism is definitely a form of groupthink. I don't think for a second anyone should have to 'stand' for the national anthem. If someone wants to sit in the locker room, or 'not participate' this is 100% fine, and a perfect example of true non-conformity because it's not antagonistic either. And surely, Nationalism 'getting out of hand' is way more scary than any kind of BLM activity that I might disagree with. [1] https://populardemocracy.org/news/publications/freedom-thrive-reimagining-safety-security-our-communities https://populardemocracy.org/news/publications/freedom-thriv... [2] https://www.cdc.gov/healthequity/lcod/men/2017/all-races-origins/index.htm https://www.cdc.gov/healthequity/lcod/men/2017/all-races-ori... [3] https://chicago.suntimes.com/crime/2020/6/20/21297470/chicago-fathers-day-weekend-shootings-homicide-gun-violence-june-19-22-104-shot https://chicago.suntimes.com/crime/2020/6/20/21297470/chicag... [3] https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2020/06/12/amid-protests-majorities-across-racial-and-ethnic-groups-express-support-for-the-black-lives-matter-movement/ https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2020/06/12/amid-protests-maj...