4 ms·

Trans people are killing themselves at alarming rates along with a slew of other issues. Why is your ability to disagree with them more important than their liv

by ptd 6y ago

Trans people are killing themselves at alarming rates along with a slew of other issues. Why is your ability to disagree with them more important than their lives?

ximeng 6y ago
Those shouldn’t be in opposition to each other, surely.
andrewclunn 6y ago
Most youth grow out of sexual dismorphia. Tgose that don't have an increased suicide rate. So promoting transitioning in adolescence increases suicide. I mean not that I need to make an argument from final consequences to justify free speech, but since you did, might as well point out that it's crap.
war1025 6y ago
And ten years ago the answer to that would have been: "Identifying as a gender you aren't is a mental health issue. And mental health issues often lead to suicide and other bad outcomes." No matter how you feel about transgender issues, there is no denying that they currently have an outsized influence on the media narrative.
AmericanChopper 6y ago
If any other medical procedure increased the risk of suicide by about 2000%, it wouldn’t be controversial to suggest that it might be a bad treatment.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  Being transgender isn't a medical procedure.
  - AmericanChopper 6y ago
    Sexual reassignment surgery is, which increases the risk of suicide by about 20x, the risk of suicide attempts by about 5x, the risk of inpatient psychiatric hospitalization by about 3x. If you want to discuss the plight of transgender individuals, then the tremendously harmful medical treatment they receive should be right at the top of your list of grievances. Unless that’s hate speech, and you’d prefer to discuss only alternative, less hateful realities.
    - dragonwriter 6y ago
      > Sexual reassignment surgery is, which increases the risk of suicide by about 20x, the risk of suicide attempts by about 5x, the risk of inpatient psychiatric hospitalization by about 3x. No, it doesn't. The source for that claim [0] doesn't control for people being transgender, comparing instead recipients of the surgery to the general population, which is not be a fatal flaw for some uses of the research (such as the conclusion of the actual report, that sex reassignment surgery is, alone, seems to be inadequate as treatment and needs supplementation), but it certainly is for the question “is sex reassignment surgery harmful, helpful, or neither for transgender individuals?” Studies that are actually directed at that question find that it is beneficial, https://medicine.yale.edu/news-article/21447/ https://medicine.yale.edu/news-article/21447/ https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/suicidality-transgender-adults/ https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/suicidal... [0] https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885 https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal..., mostly entering American right-wing propaganda as an argument for the position you use it for via https://www.heritage.org/gender/commentary/sex-reassignment-doesnt-work-here-the-evidence https://www.heritage.org/gender/commentary/sex-reassignment-...
      - AmericanChopper 6y ago
        The study you linked measures a completely different thing all together. It measures psychiatric treatment over time after surgery. It makes no mention of suicide, and seems to just gloss over the fact that psychiatric treatment tends not to be sought by the dead. I also don’t think it’s a very valid criticism to dismiss the most comprehensive research on this topic to date, performed at Sweden’s largest medical research institution, as “American right-wing propaganda”.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
deleted 6y ago
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gedy 6y ago
This sounds frighteningly like a family member threatening suicide to manipulate others. Because they disagree they are murderers?
ekianjo 6y ago
People kill themselves for a number of reasons. Do you have any evidence to claim that mere disagreement is the key, number one root cause that leads to them ending their lives?
g8oz 6y ago
This is exactly the kind of emotionally charged rhetorical blackmail that is being used to shutdown dissent.
corporateslave5 6y ago
They’ve always had high rates of suicide, it’s because wanting a sex change is usually the result of mental illness
- dang 6y ago
  Since you've ignored our request to stop posting flamebait, I've banned this account. Please don't create accounts to do that with. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
sbergot 6y ago
Without saying anything about the transgender debate: conversations needs cooperation. If disagreeing (in a polite, respectful way) with someone means that this person commits suicide then no meaningful conversation can happen. You cannot be responsible for such a death.

by ptd 6y ago

Trans people are killing themselves at alarming rates along with a slew of other issues. Why is your ability to disagree with them more important than their lives?

ximeng 6y ago

Those shouldn’t be in opposition to each other, surely.

andrewclunn 6y ago

Most youth grow out of sexual dismorphia. Tgose that don't have an increased suicide rate. So promoting transitioning in adolescence increases suicide. I mean not that I need to make an argument from final consequences to justify free speech, but since you did, might as well point out that it's crap.

war1025 6y ago

And ten years ago the answer to that would have been: "Identifying as a gender you aren't is a mental health issue. And mental health issues often lead to suicide and other bad outcomes." No matter how you feel about transgender issues, there is no denying that they currently have an outsized influence on the media narrative.

AmericanChopper 6y ago

If any other medical procedure increased the risk of suicide by about 2000%, it wouldn’t be controversial to suggest that it might be a bad treatment.

dragonwriter 6y ago
Being transgender isn't a medical procedure.
- AmericanChopper 6y ago
  Sexual reassignment surgery is, which increases the risk of suicide by about 20x, the risk of suicide attempts by about 5x, the risk of inpatient psychiatric hospitalization by about 3x. If you want to discuss the plight of transgender individuals, then the tremendously harmful medical treatment they receive should be right at the top of your list of grievances. Unless that’s hate speech, and you’d prefer to discuss only alternative, less hateful realities.
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    > Sexual reassignment surgery is, which increases the risk of suicide by about 20x, the risk of suicide attempts by about 5x, the risk of inpatient psychiatric hospitalization by about 3x. No, it doesn't. The source for that claim [0] doesn't control for people being transgender, comparing instead recipients of the surgery to the general population, which is not be a fatal flaw for some uses of the research (such as the conclusion of the actual report, that sex reassignment surgery is, alone, seems to be inadequate as treatment and needs supplementation), but it certainly is for the question “is sex reassignment surgery harmful, helpful, or neither for transgender individuals?” Studies that are actually directed at that question find that it is beneficial, https://medicine.yale.edu/news-article/21447/ https://medicine.yale.edu/news-article/21447/ https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/suicidality-transgender-adults/ https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/suicidal... [0] https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885 https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal..., mostly entering American right-wing propaganda as an argument for the position you use it for via https://www.heritage.org/gender/commentary/sex-reassignment-doesnt-work-here-the-evidence https://www.heritage.org/gender/commentary/sex-reassignment-...
    - AmericanChopper 6y ago
      The study you linked measures a completely different thing all together. It measures psychiatric treatment over time after surgery. It makes no mention of suicide, and seems to just gloss over the fact that psychiatric treatment tends not to be sought by the dead. I also don’t think it’s a very valid criticism to dismiss the most comprehensive research on this topic to date, performed at Sweden’s largest medical research institution, as “American right-wing propaganda”.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

gedy 6y ago

This sounds frighteningly like a family member threatening suicide to manipulate others. Because they disagree they are murderers?

ekianjo 6y ago

People kill themselves for a number of reasons. Do you have any evidence to claim that mere disagreement is the key, number one root cause that leads to them ending their lives?

g8oz 6y ago

This is exactly the kind of emotionally charged rhetorical blackmail that is being used to shutdown dissent.

corporateslave5 6y ago

They’ve always had high rates of suicide, it’s because wanting a sex change is usually the result of mental illness

dang 6y ago
Since you've ignored our request to stop posting flamebait, I've banned this account. Please don't create accounts to do that with. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

sbergot 6y ago

Without saying anything about the transgender debate: conversations needs cooperation. If disagreeing (in a polite, respectful way) with someone means that this person commits suicide then no meaningful conversation can happen. You cannot be responsible for such a death.