8 ms·

It only became obvious to me when I found out about the transgender debate, and that you aren't allowed to discuss reality. Just repeat 'transwomen are women' a

• ptd 6y ago
  Trans people are killing themselves at alarming rates along with a slew of other issues. Why is your ability to disagree with them more important than their lives?
  • ximeng 6y ago
    Those shouldn’t be in opposition to each other, surely.
  • andrewclunn 6y ago
    Most youth grow out of sexual dismorphia. Tgose that don't have an increased suicide rate. So promoting transitioning in adolescence increases suicide. I mean not that I need to make an argument from final consequences to justify free speech, but since you did, might as well point out that it's crap.
  • war1025 6y ago
    And ten years ago the answer to that would have been: "Identifying as a gender you aren't is a mental health issue. And mental health issues often lead to suicide and other bad outcomes." No matter how you feel about transgender issues, there is no denying that they currently have an outsized influence on the media narrative.
  • AmericanChopper 6y ago
    If any other medical procedure increased the risk of suicide by about 2000%, it wouldn’t be controversial to suggest that it might be a bad treatment.
    • dragonwriter 6y ago
      Being transgender isn't a medical procedure.
      • AmericanChopper 6y ago
        Sexual reassignment surgery is, which increases the risk of suicide by about 20x, the risk of suicide attempts by about 5x, the risk of inpatient psychiatric hospitalization by about 3x. If you want to discuss the plight of transgender individuals, then the tremendously harmful medical treatment they receive should be right at the top of your list of grievances. Unless that’s hate speech, and you’d prefer to discuss only alternative, less hateful realities.
        • dragonwriter 6y ago
          > Sexual reassignment surgery is, which increases the risk of suicide by about 20x, the risk of suicide attempts by about 5x, the risk of inpatient psychiatric hospitalization by about 3x. No, it doesn't. The source for that claim [0] doesn't control for people being transgender, comparing instead recipients of the surgery to the general population, which is not be a fatal flaw for some uses of the research (such as the conclusion of the actual report, that sex reassignment surgery is, alone, seems to be inadequate as treatment and needs supplementation), but it certainly is for the question “is sex reassignment surgery harmful, helpful, or neither for transgender individuals?” Studies that are actually directed at that question find that it is beneficial, https://medicine.yale.edu/news-article/21447/ https://medicine.yale.edu/news-article/21447/ https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/suicidality-transgender-adults/ https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/suicidal... [0] https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885 https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal..., mostly entering American right-wing propaganda as an argument for the position you use it for via https://www.heritage.org/gender/commentary/sex-reassignment-doesnt-work-here-the-evidence https://www.heritage.org/gender/commentary/sex-reassignment-...
  • deleted 6y ago
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  • gedy 6y ago
    This sounds frighteningly like a family member threatening suicide to manipulate others. Because they disagree they are murderers?
  • ekianjo 6y ago
    People kill themselves for a number of reasons. Do you have any evidence to claim that mere disagreement is the key, number one root cause that leads to them ending their lives?
  • g8oz 6y ago
    This is exactly the kind of emotionally charged rhetorical blackmail that is being used to shutdown dissent.
  • corporateslave5 6y ago
    They’ve always had high rates of suicide, it’s because wanting a sex change is usually the result of mental illness
    • dang 6y ago
      Since you've ignored our request to stop posting flamebait, I've banned this account. Please don't create accounts to do that with. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  • sbergot 6y ago
    Without saying anything about the transgender debate: conversations needs cooperation. If disagreeing (in a polite, respectful way) with someone means that this person commits suicide then no meaningful conversation can happen. You cannot be responsible for such a death.
• ptd 6y ago
  Trans people are killing themselves at alarming rates along with a slew of other issues. Why is spreading your version of reality more important than their lives?
• wavefunction 6y ago
  >You can't acknowledge they are male. I feel that you're entitled to your opinion that transwomen are men but why shouldn't you be subject to the opinion of other people? If Reddit decides it's not the sort of content they want to allow on their site then I see nothing wrong with them removing it. You're free to register transwomen-are-men.com or get-the-blm-facts.com where you can discuss your beliefs to your heart's content with others who share your opinion. Finally I would point out that "womaness" is a mental and social construct so I'm not sure what facts there are to quibble about. If people were claiming that transwomen are of the female sex then that is obviously factually incorrect.
  • asdf21 6y ago
    >You're free to register transwomen-are-men.com or get-the-blm-facts.com For now... there have been other domains whose registrars have been repeatedly banned / revoked for "hate speech", Daily Stormer comes to mind.
  • commandlinefan 6y ago
    > why shouldn't you be subject to the opinion of other people? There are people who believe that the earth is flat. They're wrong. They're entitled to their opinion, but that doesn't mean that their opinion isn't objectively, demonstrably wrong.
• d_e_solomon 6y ago
  Have you ever had a conversation with someone who is trans and what their lived experience is? Or did you just decide from your all knowing seat that you're the single arbiter of their lives and that you have the single claim on reality despite early scientific indicators saying that the situation is much more complex?
• mrlala 6y ago
  Of course you can discuss the topics. But you aren't discussing the topic if you are just dismiss someones feelings because you don't feel the same way and can't understand how someone could. >Simply because they don't believe transwomen are women "Simply".. really? And before too long ago people "simply" didn't believe that a man could be attracted to another man. It's ok to discuss the topic, but how can you expect to not sound like a complete bigot if your premise boils down to "I don't believe how you feel" >It's identity politics and this push of feelings and individual's 'truth' over actual reality and data That makes no sense. A man telling you "I feel way more like a woman" is not putting feelings over reality/data. It's introducing you to data that you never knew existed. Mostly because the presumption has always been that gender is completely binary; but it's just not that simple. The amount of gay/transgender/asexual people should be all the evidence you need. If I have every reason to be "happy" (like infinite money, not a care in the world), but I tell you "I'm sad.".. is that also putting reality/data over an individuals feelings? Of course not- I'm the only one who can tell you what I feel, even if it may sound irrational. The same is true about transgender; that is simply what they feel. >How can we fix the problems if we can't even acknowledge what is real? You can start by acknowledging how people feel, even if you can't understand it yourself.
  • logicchains 6y ago
    >That makes no sense. A man telling you "I feel way more like a woman" is not putting feelings over reality/data. Clearly you and the person you're replying to have a different definition of "woman". To them, "woman" is a classification based on biological aspects, like having two x chromosomes, to you "woman" is something more abstract.
    • mrlala 6y ago
      I see what you mean, however no one is debating the pure biological definition. >to you "woman" is something more abstract. Yes, and that's what we are talking about.. not the pure biological definition. If someone is going to stick with the pure biological definition then they have just closed their mind before even beginning a discussion.
• psquared2 6y ago
  There are much evidences that gender dysphoria may be rooted in biology. Transgender people don't choose to be one, for the fun of being ostracized and higher suicide rate. BLM: it is proven by various metrics (economic, medical statistics etc.) that the Black Americans are being left behind because of SYSTEMIC racism. A radical change is necessary to address that, and people who want status quo wants 1. to deny that it exists 2. to resist the movement. The "reality" changes everyday. The "truth" is not constant, because we don't know everything. So "terrified" that you may be wrong just may mean that you are clinging to the old "truth" and unwilling to change. (Btw? It costs you nothing to acknowledge someone that they exist as they are, whether you believe it or not. They want to be called she/her? Fine. You can still have your opinion and respect someone's existence - it's not either-or.)
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  • 9HZZRfNlpR 6y ago
    It was also proved by Muellers report Russian disinformation propaganda ran the biggest BLM social media pages but there's hardly even Americans talking about it. It's rather interesting from hackers perspective too, I suggest everyone doing it.
• dragonwriter 6y ago
  There is very little actual debate about facts, whether the facts of biological sex or the facts of personal identity, when it comes to the “transgender debate”. There is only a moral disagreement about what matters in how we should relate to people, traditional stereotypes based on expectations around gender presentation tied to biological sex or personal identity.
• danShumway 6y ago
  > and that you aren't allowed to discuss reality The distinction between gender and sex has been discussed in trans communities to death. What's really happening here is that someone claims trans women are men, the trans community responds by saying, "sex and gender are different concepts, we discussed that already". And then the original people just keep repeating, "but they're men, that's biology." Even from the perspective of just having a productive conversation, if people aren't bringing anything new to the table -- if it's just noise -- then I think that both individuals and communities have the right to filter out that noise. The marketplace of ideas should filter out arguments that can't evolve or respond to new ideas. If I show up in a science forum and start claiming that evolution is crazy because "no one was alive back then to see it", at first I might get honest responses. But if afterwards I just keep saying the same thing again, eventually the community might decide that it's not their job to get me over that hurdle. And it's fine for them to decide who they want to engage with, there is no Right to Communicate without the Right to Filter[0]. If someone wants to bring a genuinely new argument to the table that doesn't ignore trans responses that have already been given, then maybe there's something to be said there. But I'm honestly really unimpressed with most anti-trans arguments that I hear online, I think most of them add nothing to the conversation at all. [0]: https://anewdigitalmanifesto.com/ https://anewdigitalmanifesto.com/
  • luckylion 6y ago
    > The distinction between gender and sex has been discussed in trans communities to death. Is that "enough" though? If one group discusses something and comes to some form of consensus, where's the idea coming from that that consensus must be adopted by everyone else as well?
    • d_e_solomon 6y ago
      That would be like me telling you I don't like brussel sprouts and you telling me to shut up because brussel sprouts are good. Why is your opinion about a group that you're not a part of suddenly more important?
    • danShumway 6y ago
• charlesu 6y ago
  I notice that people who claim that we can’t talk about the facts rarely present facts. What are these facts that prove that transwomen aren’t women? Show me the data.
• DanBC 6y ago
  > So many people are banned from twitter just for saying men can't be women, youtube channels are demontized, and the big Gender Critical sub on reddit was recently banned, for 'hate speech'. No, that's not why people get banned. They get banned because a portion of the gender critical crowd insist on harassment, sometimes taking that to people's workplaces.