5 ms·

I think the biggest take-away from "cancel culture is bad" letters and articles is that they never come with specific examples. For example, Gareth Roberts says

I think the biggest take-away from "cancel culture is bad" letters and articles is that they never come with specific examples. For example, Gareth Roberts says he was cancelled but never say why https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gareth_Roberts_(writer)#Transgender_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gareth_Roberts_(writer)#Transg... He said transgenderism is "It's almost like a clueless gayboy's idea of a glamorous lady." It's ok to have an opinion, but if you insist it beyond being respectful and/or scientific evidences, you deserve a backlash. It's almost as if actions have consequences.

Vomzor 6y ago
Here's a list of examples: https://twitter.com/SpeechUnion/status/1269314030663012352 https://twitter.com/SpeechUnion/status/1269314030663012352
- jchook 6y ago
  Imagine using your career position as a platform to argue that Black Americans should use “separate but equal” facilities in 2020. Should you get fired? Or is that free speech?
  - ekianjo 6y ago
    That's what the ACLU has been screaming on the rooftops for years: "We All Need to Defend Speech We Hate" https://www.aclu.org/blog/free-speech/we-all-need-defend-speech-we-hate https://www.aclu.org/blog/free-speech/we-all-need-defend-spe...
  - asdf21 6y ago
    >Imagine using your career position as a platform to argue that Black Americans should use “separate but equal” facilities in 2020. Isn't that one of the core tenants of the BLM campaigns? "Separate but equal" community policing for African American neighborhoods..
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - gerbal 6y ago
      That's not true at all. This sounds a lot like the random anti BLM propaganda you see on facebook. The core tenants of BLM are that CURRENTLY black communities are policed in a radically different way than white communities. BLM activists want everyone to have a just and fair policing.
      - asdf21 6y ago
        No, it's nothing new... here is an article about the same thing from 2017... unless they have changed, BLM is a separatist movement. https://www.nationalreview.com/2017/07/black-lives-matter-racial-exclusion-lisa-durden-tucker-carlson/ https://www.nationalreview.com/2017/07/black-lives-matter-ra...
        gerbal 6y ago
        The assertion in that article is that all BLM activists and the whole movement are black separatist and racists because a "media commentator" taunted Tucker Carlson? That article also does not mention that she lost her job as a result of that interview (cancellation works both ways). While there may be black separatists who support BLM, BLM is not a black separatist movement. Ultimately any black separatists will be frustrated by BLM's goals of an inclusive and just society. Also, National Review is about as unbiased as Daily Kos, and has other ideological goals when discrediting BLM.
- softwaredoug 6y ago
  Digging into a handful of these examples, there’s a lot more to many of these stories. Advertisers not paying for Tucker Carlsons show is itself the advertisers speech, should we deprive them of it? The poetry society is about how an organization wants to democratically run. For now it’s a letter, and if they take action, it would be through their democratic process... should people NOT be advocating for more robust responses from orgs they’re a part of? The Cornell professor appears to have a long history when you look into what the students are saying... I think you CAN find examples, but we probably need to create more robust criteria before making any claims
scarmig 6y ago
David Shor is a particularly egregious example from last month. ETA the Tweet that was worthy of him being fired and cancelled: "Post-MLK-assasination race riots reduced Democratic vote share in surrounding counties by 2%, which was enough to tip the 1968 election to Nixon. Non-violent protests increase Dem vote, mainly by encouraging warm elite discourse and media coverage."
BitwiseFool 6y ago
You say "deserve a backlash", but what does that really mean? How much of a backlash and who decides? Is the purpose punishment or rehabilitation? I think you'll find that cancel culture is vigilantism. There's nothing to moderate how severe the "consequences" are.
- psquared2 6y ago
  I agree with you re: moderation. I agree that it can get out of hand. But (IMO) there are two separate issues at play here. 1. everyone is entitled to free speech 2. every action has consequences. [truth] 1. People who get "cancelled" complain that they don't have free speech [which is obviously not true], which is the crux of the discussion here. The right/wrong of the opinion doesn't matter in free speech. [opinion] 2. "Consequences" (IMO) is a mix of {a sense of righteous indignation, mob mentality, schadenfreude} - but more importantly, also very much free speech. Vigilantism implies taking the law into their own hands, which "cancelling" is not. When I say "deserve a backlash", (IMO) it is because people who get "cancelled" are often people with a platform/entitlement/privilege. Taking that away is pretty much the only leverage that people have. Even after that, the right to free speech is still not lost. (But do I think "cancelling" is ok? That's context-specific. I agree with some cancelling, some not.)
hogFeast 6y ago
You do not have to be respectful or subject your own opinions to scientific evidence (are you implying that we can scientifically prove what an idea is? The anti-scientific implication behind this is ironic). Notions of respectability is literally what the Village is about. The irony is incredible. And yes, saying that transgender people pick funny names is not a hate crime. You may be unaware but in the UK we actually have fairly severe hate crime laws, you can go to jail if you say something hateful on social media...this isn't close (and btw, the prosecution service in the UK has said they will prosecute literally everything they can and specifically aim to crack down on "low-level" hate crime...the bar is exceptionally low). Also "deserve a backlash"...again, the irony of saying this on an article discussing the Village is...too much. Why are you judge, jury, and executioner? Backlash doesn't exactly imply rehabilitation, it implies judgement and shaming.
- psquared2 6y ago
  Uh, no - I am saying when opinions clash, the tie-breaker should be science. Everyone's entitled to their ideas/opinions... until it starts affecting other people. Like wearing masks. Also: PLEASE note that "respect" and "respectability" are different. It is VERY important, especially if your first language is English. [/s] I never said what Gareth Roberts said was a hate crime. It is just a heinous opinion, which in my opinion, deserves a backlash.
  - hogFeast 6y ago
    I never said they were same. VERY important, especially if your first language is English. Again, the irony is huge. The tie-breaker should be science...heinous opinion, which in my opinion, deserves a backlash. Are you equating your opinion with science? Everyone is entitled to their ideas/opinions...it is just a heinous opinion. which in my opinion, deserves a backlash. Again, what is this? You realise that whilst you believe you are picking other people on their grammar, you are literally just repeating what I pointed out above (again, the issue is you are attempting to universalise what you regard as respectability...even worse, you are calling this science...reminiscent of the scientific racism of the early 20th century...just without the science, I am not sure it gets worse than this). Srs, this is embarrassing. You are the archetype of lazy thinking. Read the OP. I won't be able to tell you anything.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

Vomzor 6y ago

Here's a list of examples: https://twitter.com/SpeechUnion/status/1269314030663012352 https://twitter.com/SpeechUnion/status/1269314030663012352

jchook 6y ago
Imagine using your career position as a platform to argue that Black Americans should use “separate but equal” facilities in 2020. Should you get fired? Or is that free speech?
- ekianjo 6y ago
  That's what the ACLU has been screaming on the rooftops for years: "We All Need to Defend Speech We Hate" https://www.aclu.org/blog/free-speech/we-all-need-defend-speech-we-hate https://www.aclu.org/blog/free-speech/we-all-need-defend-spe...
- asdf21 6y ago
  >Imagine using your career position as a platform to argue that Black Americans should use “separate but equal” facilities in 2020. Isn't that one of the core tenants of the BLM campaigns? "Separate but equal" community policing for African American neighborhoods..
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - gerbal 6y ago
    That's not true at all. This sounds a lot like the random anti BLM propaganda you see on facebook. The core tenants of BLM are that CURRENTLY black communities are policed in a radically different way than white communities. BLM activists want everyone to have a just and fair policing.
    - asdf21 6y ago
      No, it's nothing new... here is an article about the same thing from 2017... unless they have changed, BLM is a separatist movement. https://www.nationalreview.com/2017/07/black-lives-matter-racial-exclusion-lisa-durden-tucker-carlson/ https://www.nationalreview.com/2017/07/black-lives-matter-ra...
      - gerbal 6y ago
        The assertion in that article is that all BLM activists and the whole movement are black separatist and racists because a "media commentator" taunted Tucker Carlson? That article also does not mention that she lost her job as a result of that interview (cancellation works both ways). While there may be black separatists who support BLM, BLM is not a black separatist movement. Ultimately any black separatists will be frustrated by BLM's goals of an inclusive and just society. Also, National Review is about as unbiased as Daily Kos, and has other ideological goals when discrediting BLM.
softwaredoug 6y ago
Digging into a handful of these examples, there’s a lot more to many of these stories. Advertisers not paying for Tucker Carlsons show is itself the advertisers speech, should we deprive them of it? The poetry society is about how an organization wants to democratically run. For now it’s a letter, and if they take action, it would be through their democratic process... should people NOT be advocating for more robust responses from orgs they’re a part of? The Cornell professor appears to have a long history when you look into what the students are saying... I think you CAN find examples, but we probably need to create more robust criteria before making any claims

scarmig 6y ago

David Shor is a particularly egregious example from last month. ETA the Tweet that was worthy of him being fired and cancelled: "Post-MLK-assasination race riots reduced Democratic vote share in surrounding counties by 2%, which was enough to tip the 1968 election to Nixon. Non-violent protests increase Dem vote, mainly by encouraging warm elite discourse and media coverage."

BitwiseFool 6y ago

You say "deserve a backlash", but what does that really mean? How much of a backlash and who decides? Is the purpose punishment or rehabilitation? I think you'll find that cancel culture is vigilantism. There's nothing to moderate how severe the "consequences" are.

psquared2 6y ago
I agree with you re: moderation. I agree that it can get out of hand. But (IMO) there are two separate issues at play here. 1. everyone is entitled to free speech 2. every action has consequences. [truth] 1. People who get "cancelled" complain that they don't have free speech [which is obviously not true], which is the crux of the discussion here. The right/wrong of the opinion doesn't matter in free speech. [opinion] 2. "Consequences" (IMO) is a mix of {a sense of righteous indignation, mob mentality, schadenfreude} - but more importantly, also very much free speech. Vigilantism implies taking the law into their own hands, which "cancelling" is not. When I say "deserve a backlash", (IMO) it is because people who get "cancelled" are often people with a platform/entitlement/privilege. Taking that away is pretty much the only leverage that people have. Even after that, the right to free speech is still not lost. (But do I think "cancelling" is ok? That's context-specific. I agree with some cancelling, some not.)

hogFeast 6y ago

You do not have to be respectful or subject your own opinions to scientific evidence (are you implying that we can scientifically prove what an idea is? The anti-scientific implication behind this is ironic). Notions of respectability is literally what the Village is about. The irony is incredible. And yes, saying that transgender people pick funny names is not a hate crime. You may be unaware but in the UK we actually have fairly severe hate crime laws, you can go to jail if you say something hateful on social media...this isn't close (and btw, the prosecution service in the UK has said they will prosecute literally everything they can and specifically aim to crack down on "low-level" hate crime...the bar is exceptionally low). Also "deserve a backlash"...again, the irony of saying this on an article discussing the Village is...too much. Why are you judge, jury, and executioner? Backlash doesn't exactly imply rehabilitation, it implies judgement and shaming.

psquared2 6y ago
Uh, no - I am saying when opinions clash, the tie-breaker should be science. Everyone's entitled to their ideas/opinions... until it starts affecting other people. Like wearing masks. Also: PLEASE note that "respect" and "respectability" are different. It is VERY important, especially if your first language is English. [/s] I never said what Gareth Roberts said was a hate crime. It is just a heinous opinion, which in my opinion, deserves a backlash.
- hogFeast 6y ago
  I never said they were same. VERY important, especially if your first language is English. Again, the irony is huge. The tie-breaker should be science...heinous opinion, which in my opinion, deserves a backlash. Are you equating your opinion with science? Everyone is entitled to their ideas/opinions...it is just a heinous opinion. which in my opinion, deserves a backlash. Again, what is this? You realise that whilst you believe you are picking other people on their grammar, you are literally just repeating what I pointed out above (again, the issue is you are attempting to universalise what you regard as respectability...even worse, you are calling this science...reminiscent of the scientific racism of the early 20th century...just without the science, I am not sure it gets worse than this). Srs, this is embarrassing. You are the archetype of lazy thinking. Read the OP. I won't be able to tell you anything.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]