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> I'm pretty sure that's the same agreement that every developer has with Google just by writing an android app and using Google APIs. But why would WhatsApp s

> I'm pretty sure that's the same agreement that every developer has with Google just by writing an android app and using Google APIs. But why would WhatsApp store it unencrypted on Google Drive, and encrypted (without giving you any access to the key) on your own SD card or local backup? It makes no sense. Except ... Google and Facebook have agreed that WhatsApp stores the database unencrypted, and in return Google doesn't count it against the user's quota. Everybody wins! Facebook get to have free backup for users, Google gets to see all user messages and metadata. And the user gets rid of this pesky privacy thing! [0] https://faq.whatsapp.com/android/chats/about-google-drive-backups/ https://faq.whatsapp.com/android/chats/about-google-drive-ba... - "WhatsApp backups no longer count against your Google Drive storage quota." and "Media and messages you back up aren't protected by WhatsApp end-to-end encryption while in Google Drive."

nemothekid 6y ago
So, Facebook is willing to give up data on its users, it’s highest competitive advantage, to its largest competitor, in exchange for... some commodity backup disk space?
- beagle3 6y ago
  They likely get more in return that we're unaware of .... But, you know -- they gave the same kind of info (and much, much more) to firms like Cambridge Analytica for free for years. So perhaps they didn't even get more in return. Facebook's purchase of WhatsApp was OKd by EU regulators subject to some constraints, e.g. that they don't use WhatsApp data to enhance FB graph and/or gain other unfair advantages. FB has since admitted to using WhatsApp metadata in violation of that constraint (and didn't even get a slap on the wrist) - and perhaps giving the data to Google is also part of playing dumb. I don't know, but I'm sure it has everything to do with benefit for FB and GOOG, and almost surely at the expense of user privacy.
EE84M3i 6y ago
"But why would WhatsApp store it unencrypted on Google Drive, and encrypted (without giving you any access to the key) on your own SD card or local backup? It makes no sense." The design is pretty clearly to support the bog standard backup use case of "something happened to my device, I got a new one, I want my old data". It would be nice if they added an option to also encrypt backups, although I think it would be non trivial to design where the key material would live. (phone enclave? Multiple devices? adding/removing devices? etc) Not to mention just having the option might cause more harm than good if people turn it on and regret it. I think their design philosophy here is likely "let's err on the side of smooth UX and let the 'end-to-end encryption is srs bzns' loonies go to signal"
- beagle3 6y ago
  As mentioned in my previous post: They already support encrypted backups. In fact, they don't support unencrypted locally. > The design is pretty clearly to support the bog standard backup use case of "something happened to my device, I got a new one, I want my old data". They had, in fact, perfected the local encrypted seamless "something went wrong" workflow - they keys are delivered from the server (stored or generated, I don't know) once you've proved you can receive texts on that phone number. Without that, the local backup is useless. And IIRC, they ALSO did the same with Google Drive. But then, one day, it stopped counting against your quota and the encryption disappeared. > I think their design philosophy here is likely "let's err on the side of smooth UX The UI was as smooth as it can be. It still is, for local backup. I try not to attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity, deadlines or missing budgets, but in this case, there was a decision to remove encryption, that required negotiating with a rival. That decision had costs, and the process had costs. There is a benefit associated or this decision would not have been taken. I don't know exactly what it is.
  - stallmanite 6y ago
    Thank you for laying bare the specifics of this issue. It does seem indefensible.
sfifs 6y ago
The unencrypted backup system is almost certainly implemented mainly to give government authorities easy access to chat history when presented with a warrant whenever possible. Since this is offered as a helpful feature, very few think twice about the part in asterisk. This way they can comply with warrants without backdooring their app while continuing to sticker label "end to end encryption" and giving people comfort that their data is in "their" drive. There's no other reason really for such a weird arrangement.
- IAmEveryone 6y ago
  That doesn't make much sense. There is no such legal requirement (hence the discussion). The Google backup option isn't universally used. And WhatsApp controls the key generation and management and could easily integrate any other sort of more robust backdoor. Such as their previous system, as described somewhere in this subthread, of storing the key on the server to allow recovery.
  - sfifs 6y ago
    I'm not saying it's a legal requirement, I'm saying it's likely a smart tacit compromise. On one hand - even after end to end encryption, we continue to see WhatsApp messages quoted in prosecution including in SEC actions and prosecutors are clearly getting access to messages even pre-arrest. The ability of prosecutors to compell unlocking after arrest in US is questionable. So how are they getting access to the messages if there's truly end to end encryption? Also there are any number of Governments in the important non-US markets that would simply ban WhatsApp if they didn't have access against a warrant (eg. See BlackBerry cases from some years ago) On the other hand, no security researcher seems to have found or at least reported a back door in the WhatsApp apps that supports MITM undetectable to physical key verification which is the obvious weakness in an end to end encryption system based on centralised key repository system. On the gripping hand, all high profile cases trying to compell tech companies to provide evidence have been against Apple. I've not heard of one against WhatsApp. Ergo - the most like scenario is that this feature is deliberately built keeping messages un-encrypted so that when law enforcement shows up with a warrant or a muzzled warrant, they can just hand over the archive without weakening their app. People are convinced to opt in because it's the only way to change devices while keeping your messages. To give people comfort that unencrypted messages ate safe, it is sold as as "it's in your own Google drive"
tomgaga 6y ago
I think this statement is being misunderstood by a lot of people here. The Google Drive backup is most likely still encrypted, just not "end to end" because the key needs to be stored on a Facebook server. That makes a lot more sense to me.
- beagle3 6y ago
  I don’t follow this closely, and this may have changed recently but As of 6 months ago, people have managed to download an unencrypted copy from Google Drive by impersonating the WhatsApp app.

nemothekid 6y ago

So, Facebook is willing to give up data on its users, it’s highest competitive advantage, to its largest competitor, in exchange for... some commodity backup disk space?

beagle3 6y ago
They likely get more in return that we're unaware of .... But, you know -- they gave the same kind of info (and much, much more) to firms like Cambridge Analytica for free for years. So perhaps they didn't even get more in return. Facebook's purchase of WhatsApp was OKd by EU regulators subject to some constraints, e.g. that they don't use WhatsApp data to enhance FB graph and/or gain other unfair advantages. FB has since admitted to using WhatsApp metadata in violation of that constraint (and didn't even get a slap on the wrist) - and perhaps giving the data to Google is also part of playing dumb. I don't know, but I'm sure it has everything to do with benefit for FB and GOOG, and almost surely at the expense of user privacy.

EE84M3i 6y ago

"But why would WhatsApp store it unencrypted on Google Drive, and encrypted (without giving you any access to the key) on your own SD card or local backup? It makes no sense." The design is pretty clearly to support the bog standard backup use case of "something happened to my device, I got a new one, I want my old data". It would be nice if they added an option to also encrypt backups, although I think it would be non trivial to design where the key material would live. (phone enclave? Multiple devices? adding/removing devices? etc) Not to mention just having the option might cause more harm than good if people turn it on and regret it. I think their design philosophy here is likely "let's err on the side of smooth UX and let the 'end-to-end encryption is srs bzns' loonies go to signal"

beagle3 6y ago
As mentioned in my previous post: They already support encrypted backups. In fact, they don't support unencrypted locally. > The design is pretty clearly to support the bog standard backup use case of "something happened to my device, I got a new one, I want my old data". They had, in fact, perfected the local encrypted seamless "something went wrong" workflow - they keys are delivered from the server (stored or generated, I don't know) once you've proved you can receive texts on that phone number. Without that, the local backup is useless. And IIRC, they ALSO did the same with Google Drive. But then, one day, it stopped counting against your quota and the encryption disappeared. > I think their design philosophy here is likely "let's err on the side of smooth UX The UI was as smooth as it can be. It still is, for local backup. I try not to attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity, deadlines or missing budgets, but in this case, there was a decision to remove encryption, that required negotiating with a rival. That decision had costs, and the process had costs. There is a benefit associated or this decision would not have been taken. I don't know exactly what it is.
- stallmanite 6y ago
  Thank you for laying bare the specifics of this issue. It does seem indefensible.

sfifs 6y ago

The unencrypted backup system is almost certainly implemented mainly to give government authorities easy access to chat history when presented with a warrant whenever possible. Since this is offered as a helpful feature, very few think twice about the part in asterisk. This way they can comply with warrants without backdooring their app while continuing to sticker label "end to end encryption" and giving people comfort that their data is in "their" drive. There's no other reason really for such a weird arrangement.

IAmEveryone 6y ago
That doesn't make much sense. There is no such legal requirement (hence the discussion). The Google backup option isn't universally used. And WhatsApp controls the key generation and management and could easily integrate any other sort of more robust backdoor. Such as their previous system, as described somewhere in this subthread, of storing the key on the server to allow recovery.
- sfifs 6y ago
  I'm not saying it's a legal requirement, I'm saying it's likely a smart tacit compromise. On one hand - even after end to end encryption, we continue to see WhatsApp messages quoted in prosecution including in SEC actions and prosecutors are clearly getting access to messages even pre-arrest. The ability of prosecutors to compell unlocking after arrest in US is questionable. So how are they getting access to the messages if there's truly end to end encryption? Also there are any number of Governments in the important non-US markets that would simply ban WhatsApp if they didn't have access against a warrant (eg. See BlackBerry cases from some years ago) On the other hand, no security researcher seems to have found or at least reported a back door in the WhatsApp apps that supports MITM undetectable to physical key verification which is the obvious weakness in an end to end encryption system based on centralised key repository system. On the gripping hand, all high profile cases trying to compell tech companies to provide evidence have been against Apple. I've not heard of one against WhatsApp. Ergo - the most like scenario is that this feature is deliberately built keeping messages un-encrypted so that when law enforcement shows up with a warrant or a muzzled warrant, they can just hand over the archive without weakening their app. People are convinced to opt in because it's the only way to change devices while keeping your messages. To give people comfort that unencrypted messages ate safe, it is sold as as "it's in your own Google drive"

tomgaga 6y ago

I think this statement is being misunderstood by a lot of people here. The Google Drive backup is most likely still encrypted, just not "end to end" because the key needs to be stored on a Facebook server. That makes a lot more sense to me.

beagle3 6y ago
I don’t follow this closely, and this may have changed recently but As of 6 months ago, people have managed to download an unencrypted copy from Google Drive by impersonating the WhatsApp app.