5 ms·

Hypocrites (after the high up officials in charge of Guatanamo Bay are still walking unsanctioned).

by cies 6y ago

peroporque 6y ago
I agree that the Falcons should be in prison, but there is a difference between putting a few hundred political extremists in jail, compared to a few million normal people based on their race. So, no, not "hypocrites".
- jlokier 6y ago
  Well, some of those in Guantanamo are political extremists. And some of them are probably normal people. https://www.dawn.com/news/1539457/still-at-guantanamo https://www.dawn.com/news/1539457/still-at-guantanamo
  - peroporque 6y ago
    True, that's why I say the Falcons should be in jail. But the intention is to catch extremists, the flaw is to not follow due process. Whereas in China, the intention is to commit cultural genocide.
- luckylion 6y ago
  > few hundred political extremists Like in Abu Ghraib, where they created a torture dungeon for thousands of Iraqis, from common criminals to suspect rebels, generally without trial? This whole "no, it's just some really evil individuals that we tortured, we are the good guys here" narrative is disgusting.
  - cies 6y ago
    > without trial this is the main point. both states like to do it without trial.
    - thoughtstheseus 6y ago
      That’s why state interests should be below individual interests. Otherwise what’s the point of a state?
    - jacquesm 6y ago
      Torture is illegal, with or without a trial. It is a war crime and/or a crime against humanity and should be prosecuted as such.
    - peroporque 6y ago
      In China, trials are irrelevant, because there is no independent judicial system. What's more important is intention. One side tries to catch murderers and sometimes does not follow due process. The other side tries to kill off the culture of an entire people by violently "reeducation" millions of human beings. Honestly, I find it disgusting that people here seem to be mostly fine with those crimes, and even try to defend them.
- cies 6y ago
  > based on their race It's simply without a trial. All states have nice words for why they have to target whom they target. Let's not fall for propaganda. The scale is different: true. But same-scale is not a prerequisite for hypocrisy.
  - peroporque 6y ago
    Trials are irrelevant in China, because judges are part of the CCP. the Uygurs are imprisoned based on their race. With or without trial makes no difference.
Hnrobert42 6y ago
1. Oppressing millions of their own Chinese citizens is different than the imprisonment of several hundred. 2. The world must not be distracted by such facile whataboutism. What the CPC does to its people, from Xiangjiang to Hong Kong is terrible. Would I like to see the US clean up its own act? Sure. But in the meantime, I am happy to see the US take a string stance against CPC totalitarianism.
- luckylion 6y ago
  Are you suggesting it's worse to do something to "your own people" than to do it to "other people"?
  - cies 6y ago
    Added to that, what happened to: "Injustice to one is injustice to all"
  - mrkstu 6y ago
    Well, yes, in the sense that technically it's 'their' government. It's 'worse' when those who supposedly should protect you, instead abuse you, similar to how the BLM protests grew out of outrage about police brutality, even though it is a vanishingly small amount of the violence minority communities suffer.
    - luckylion 6y ago
      From an outsider's perspective on human rights, would it be worse if a government mishandles citizens than if they mishandle foreigners? I believe it really doesn't matter at all if it is actually about human rights, they're human in either case.
  - pc86 6y ago
    Of course it is. Is it worse for the government to bomb a foreign country, or to bomb its own people? Of course they're both bad, but there's a reason the international community reacted one way to Syria and one way to the US invasion of Afghanistan.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
onetimemanytime 6y ago
No doubt you'll find something about everyone but that doesn't mean anything. Guantanamo was supposed to be for the worst of the worst terrorists. No doubt a few were mistakenly selected but by mistake (USA has no interest in spending so much money and limited resources on a, say, innocent Pakistani cab driver.) China has essentially put in camps /jail millions and millions of its citizens, simply because they are Muslim. And they're trying to wipe out their identity. Now tell me how they compare ?
- cies 6y ago
  Both did not have a fair trail. Saying it is only for group X but then not putting them on trail first is what both states do. Both say it is for "enemies of the state". Scale is probably different, you are right on that. But point fingers to other states while being dirty yourself is hypocrisy by definition.
  - throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
    > Scale is probably different I'm not sure this is true. Could you please post the numbers at guantanamo and the numbers imprisoned at Xinjiang? That would help clarify this point, thanks.
    - dsfyu404ed 6y ago
      There is about four(!!!) orders of magnitude difference. >numbers at guantanamo Hundreds at any one time, under a hundred currently, well less than a thousand peak[1] >numbers imprisoned at Xinjiang On the order of millions[2] If you want to be disingenuous more effectively I suggest you get better and choosing when to ask for citations. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_re-education_camps https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_re-education_camps
      - throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
        > If you want to be disingenuous more effectively That it was a deliberate disingenuity seemed to have flown far and high over your head. What do you think I was trying to do?
monoclechris 6y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Guantanamo_Bay_detainees#:~:text=775%20detainees%20have%20been%20brought,55%20detainees%20remained%20at%20Guantanamo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Guantanamo_Bay_detaine.... the detention center remained open with 41 detainees remaining. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-45474279 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-45474279 a UN committee heard that up to one million Uighur Muslims and other Muslim groups could be being detained Totally the same though.
bserge 6y ago
Some action is better than inaction, though
nahname 6y ago
Whataboutism does not add to the discussion.
ardy42 6y ago
> Hypocrites (after the high up officials in charge of Guatanamo Bay are still walking unsanctioned). Guantanamo Bay and the Xinjiang camps are not comparable. For all its faults, Guantanamo is essentially a POW camp that contains enemy combatants. No American citizens are detained there, and none were ever meant to be. The Xinjiang camps were specifically built to forcibly indoctrinate civilian ethnic-minority Chinese citizens and suppress their community and culture. They operate on a much larger scale, and also provide a captive labor pool that's being exploited.
- DiogenesKynikos 6y ago
  Guantanamo Bay held hundreds of people - a large proportion of them not even particularly important people, some of them completely randomly swept up - with no legal rights, under a Kafkaesque interpretation of the law. > essentially a POW camp The US government refused to treat people in Guantanamo Bay as POWs. That's why they called them "enemy combatants." POWs have rights. Guantanamo Bay itself was only a tiny part of the larger War on Terror. The US ran prison camps scattered throughout the world, in which it tortured prisoners. The US kidnapped civilians and flew them to secret prisons, or to be tortured by allied countries like Egypt. One person was even kidnapped by American intelligence off the streets of Milan. In Iraq, the US worked with Shiite militias that tortured and killed large numbers of people suspected of being sympathetic to the insurgency. The US itself ran prisons like Abu Ghraib, in which prisoners were tortured. Hundreds of thousands of civilians died in Iraq, as a result of the illegal invasion. No senior figure involved in these crimes was prosecuted. So when the US government suddenly develops a conscience, consider me skeptical.

Hypocrites (after the high up officials in charge of Guatanamo Bay are still walking unsanctioned).

by cies 6y ago

Hypocrites (after the high up officials in charge of Guatanamo Bay are still walking unsanctioned).

I agree that the Falcons should be in prison, but there is a difference between putting a few hundred political extremists in jail, compared to a few million normal people based on their race. So, no, not "hypocrites".

jlokier 6y ago
Well, some of those in Guantanamo are political extremists. And some of them are probably normal people. https://www.dawn.com/news/1539457/still-at-guantanamo https://www.dawn.com/news/1539457/still-at-guantanamo
- peroporque 6y ago
  True, that's why I say the Falcons should be in jail. But the intention is to catch extremists, the flaw is to not follow due process. Whereas in China, the intention is to commit cultural genocide.
luckylion 6y ago
> few hundred political extremists Like in Abu Ghraib, where they created a torture dungeon for thousands of Iraqis, from common criminals to suspect rebels, generally without trial? This whole "no, it's just some really evil individuals that we tortured, we are the good guys here" narrative is disgusting.
- cies 6y ago
  > without trial this is the main point. both states like to do it without trial.
  - thoughtstheseus 6y ago
    That’s why state interests should be below individual interests. Otherwise what’s the point of a state?
  - jacquesm 6y ago
    Torture is illegal, with or without a trial. It is a war crime and/or a crime against humanity and should be prosecuted as such.
  - peroporque 6y ago
    In China, trials are irrelevant, because there is no independent judicial system. What's more important is intention. One side tries to catch murderers and sometimes does not follow due process. The other side tries to kill off the culture of an entire people by violently "reeducation" millions of human beings. Honestly, I find it disgusting that people here seem to be mostly fine with those crimes, and even try to defend them.
cies 6y ago
> based on their race It's simply without a trial. All states have nice words for why they have to target whom they target. Let's not fall for propaganda. The scale is different: true. But same-scale is not a prerequisite for hypocrisy.
- peroporque 6y ago
  Trials are irrelevant in China, because judges are part of the CCP. the Uygurs are imprisoned based on their race. With or without trial makes no difference.

Hnrobert42 6y ago

1. Oppressing millions of their own Chinese citizens is different than the imprisonment of several hundred. 2. The world must not be distracted by such facile whataboutism. What the CPC does to its people, from Xiangjiang to Hong Kong is terrible. Would I like to see the US clean up its own act? Sure. But in the meantime, I am happy to see the US take a string stance against CPC totalitarianism.

luckylion 6y ago
Are you suggesting it's worse to do something to "your own people" than to do it to "other people"?
- cies 6y ago
  Added to that, what happened to: "Injustice to one is injustice to all"
- mrkstu 6y ago
  Well, yes, in the sense that technically it's 'their' government. It's 'worse' when those who supposedly should protect you, instead abuse you, similar to how the BLM protests grew out of outrage about police brutality, even though it is a vanishingly small amount of the violence minority communities suffer.
  - luckylion 6y ago
    From an outsider's perspective on human rights, would it be worse if a government mishandles citizens than if they mishandle foreigners? I believe it really doesn't matter at all if it is actually about human rights, they're human in either case.
- pc86 6y ago
  Of course it is. Is it worse for the government to bomb a foreign country, or to bomb its own people? Of course they're both bad, but there's a reason the international community reacted one way to Syria and one way to the US invasion of Afghanistan.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

onetimemanytime 6y ago

No doubt you'll find something about everyone but that doesn't mean anything. Guantanamo was supposed to be for the worst of the worst terrorists. No doubt a few were mistakenly selected but by mistake (USA has no interest in spending so much money and limited resources on a, say, innocent Pakistani cab driver.) China has essentially put in camps /jail millions and millions of its citizens, simply because they are Muslim. And they're trying to wipe out their identity. Now tell me how they compare ?

cies 6y ago
Both did not have a fair trail. Saying it is only for group X but then not putting them on trail first is what both states do. Both say it is for "enemies of the state". Scale is probably different, you are right on that. But point fingers to other states while being dirty yourself is hypocrisy by definition.
- throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
  > Scale is probably different I'm not sure this is true. Could you please post the numbers at guantanamo and the numbers imprisoned at Xinjiang? That would help clarify this point, thanks.
  - dsfyu404ed 6y ago
    There is about four(!!!) orders of magnitude difference. >numbers at guantanamo Hundreds at any one time, under a hundred currently, well less than a thousand peak[1] >numbers imprisoned at Xinjiang On the order of millions[2] If you want to be disingenuous more effectively I suggest you get better and choosing when to ask for citations. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_re-education_camps https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_re-education_camps
    - throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
      > If you want to be disingenuous more effectively That it was a deliberate disingenuity seemed to have flown far and high over your head. What do you think I was trying to do?

monoclechris 6y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Guantanamo_Bay_detainees#:~:text=775%20detainees%20have%20been%20brought,55%20detainees%20remained%20at%20Guantanamo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Guantanamo_Bay_detaine.... the detention center remained open with 41 detainees remaining. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-45474279 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-45474279 a UN committee heard that up to one million Uighur Muslims and other Muslim groups could be being detained Totally the same though.

bserge 6y ago

Some action is better than inaction, though

nahname 6y ago

Whataboutism does not add to the discussion.

ardy42 6y ago

> Hypocrites (after the high up officials in charge of Guatanamo Bay are still walking unsanctioned). Guantanamo Bay and the Xinjiang camps are not comparable. For all its faults, Guantanamo is essentially a POW camp that contains enemy combatants. No American citizens are detained there, and none were ever meant to be. The Xinjiang camps were specifically built to forcibly indoctrinate civilian ethnic-minority Chinese citizens and suppress their community and culture. They operate on a much larger scale, and also provide a captive labor pool that's being exploited.

DiogenesKynikos 6y ago
Guantanamo Bay held hundreds of people - a large proportion of them not even particularly important people, some of them completely randomly swept up - with no legal rights, under a Kafkaesque interpretation of the law. > essentially a POW camp The US government refused to treat people in Guantanamo Bay as POWs. That's why they called them "enemy combatants." POWs have rights. Guantanamo Bay itself was only a tiny part of the larger War on Terror. The US ran prison camps scattered throughout the world, in which it tortured prisoners. The US kidnapped civilians and flew them to secret prisons, or to be tortured by allied countries like Egypt. One person was even kidnapped by American intelligence off the streets of Milan. In Iraq, the US worked with Shiite militias that tortured and killed large numbers of people suspected of being sympathetic to the insurgency. The US itself ran prisons like Abu Ghraib, in which prisoners were tortured. Hundreds of thousands of civilians died in Iraq, as a result of the illegal invasion. No senior figure involved in these crimes was prosecuted. So when the US government suddenly develops a conscience, consider me skeptical.