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> That's a very roundabout way of saying "people tried it, hate it, and told others: UNFAIR." Hmm, I'm not a native English speaker so I might have not exactly

> That's a very roundabout way of saying "people tried it, hate it, and told others: UNFAIR." Hmm, I'm not a native English speaker so I might have not exactly conveyed my intentions. I'm definitely not trying to argue that other people are unfair, but more just that people should try it out a bit more. > I'd love to ignore the Touch Bar, but since they stole the F key row for it, I cannot. I'm genuinely curious about this F-keys every time I write about the Touch Bar - I've never encountered use for those keys that are really useful. > Since there's no physical feedback Yeah, that part I agree. If you're still suffering about it (regardless whether you use Touch Bar regularly or not), you might want the HapticKey app that I've mentioned it previously. > The content is on the screen, if you can touch type you shouldn't ever be looking down Well, because the Touch Bar's layout is pretty stable, I find that I can touch-type the Touch Bar without looking down the screen. It becomes muscle memory, just like a usual keyboard.

duncanawoods 6y ago
> I've never encountered use for those keys that are really useful. There are some very common operations across apps (Linux/Windows) that I use all the time and can be stabbed without thinking: F2 - rename F5 - refresh F11 - fullscreen If you are programmer then it's kind of essential during debugging: F5 - run / continue F9 - insert breakpoint F10 - step over F11 - step in Not having physical keys for navigating would be a nightmare.
- pcr910303 6y ago
  Well, aren't that basically the use case for the Touch Bar? I've never used any of them you've listed (except for F5-refresh, which I avoid and use Cmd-R). The fn-keys are as context-dependent as the Touch Bar and it's even more opaque than what it does just by glancing the buttons. For debug tools, Xcode unfortunately doesn't provide Touch Bar buttons for them (which I think is a pity), but IntelliJ IDEA seems to be providing them. With this example I'm firmly thinking that having fn-keys just for the sake of people who do know a bit of key shortcuts would be a nightmare.
  - duncanawoods 6y ago
    I think it was a good idea to rethink function keys it's just that for their current uses, the touch bar is worse. Things like steering a debugger is an eyes-on-the-road activity benefiting strongly from physical keys. I would be much more supportive of ideas like "keys with displays" or a non-interactive strip to act as labels. What I dream of is physical pixels for tactile displays or a fleet of magnetic microbots that can swarm together to form switches, knobs and sliders at will.

duncanawoods 6y ago

> I've never encountered use for those keys that are really useful. There are some very common operations across apps (Linux/Windows) that I use all the time and can be stabbed without thinking: F2 - rename F5 - refresh F11 - fullscreen If you are programmer then it's kind of essential during debugging: F5 - run / continue F9 - insert breakpoint F10 - step over F11 - step in Not having physical keys for navigating would be a nightmare.

pcr910303 6y ago
Well, aren't that basically the use case for the Touch Bar? I've never used any of them you've listed (except for F5-refresh, which I avoid and use Cmd-R). The fn-keys are as context-dependent as the Touch Bar and it's even more opaque than what it does just by glancing the buttons. For debug tools, Xcode unfortunately doesn't provide Touch Bar buttons for them (which I think is a pity), but IntelliJ IDEA seems to be providing them. With this example I'm firmly thinking that having fn-keys just for the sake of people who do know a bit of key shortcuts would be a nightmare.
- duncanawoods 6y ago
  I think it was a good idea to rethink function keys it's just that for their current uses, the touch bar is worse. Things like steering a debugger is an eyes-on-the-road activity benefiting strongly from physical keys. I would be much more supportive of ideas like "keys with displays" or a non-interactive strip to act as labels. What I dream of is physical pixels for tactile displays or a fleet of magnetic microbots that can swarm together to form switches, knobs and sliders at will.