4 ms·

I think a great article could be written on how much of the gaming industry, including PC games, phone games and twitch streamers are funded by whales without s

I think a great article could be written on how much of the gaming industry, including PC games, phone games and twitch streamers are funded by whales without self control, who are mainly children and teens.

retsibsi 6y ago
'Mainly children and teens' may be true, but I don't think it is obvious without evidence. (Intuitively it seems likely that most of the people involved are kids, but most of the $ are spent by adults, and 'most of the whales' depends on the definition of whale.) But IMO there's no magic line between children and adults that makes it okay to harmfully exploit someone's weaknesses provided they're over 18. I know focusing on children makes sense, because it's even harder to justify in that case, and probably more legally dubious. But I hope we're not implicitly saying it is/would be ethically okay provided they only take advantage of adults.
- michaelt 6y ago
  > But IMO there's no magic line between children and adults that makes it okay to harmfully exploit someone's weaknesses provided they're over 18. Seems to me freedom of choice isn't just about selecting between good decisions, but having the right to make bad ones. Freedom isn't merely the choice between 'Fresh Stripe' toothpaste and 'Total Whitening' toothpaste - it's having the choice to go without even though it's dumb to have your teeth fall out. Any society willing to ban lootboxes for informed, consenting, mentally competent adults would have no problem with banning porn and smoking and drinking too much and bicycling without a helmet by following the same logic. There are steps you could take short of a total ban, of course - as we do for other vices.
  - scrollaway 6y ago
    It's common in societies to ban substances and practices which are toxic and/or harmful to people and those around them. This includes hard drugs (smoking and alcohol get a pass primarily due to a pre-existing legacy userbase and industry, but they wouldn't even sort of get that today, anywhere, in a fresh slate, especially nicotine), unsafe practices on the road (such as not wearing a seat belt), and indeed porn where consent is not explicit and informed (revenge porn and child abuse). And you'll note a lot of economic practices are banned in the Land Of The Free(tm), Ponzi schemes being a good example. Is this unreasonable? If you're a libertarian you might argue it is, but most people think it's a perfectly fine thing to ban. Not saying you're wrong (although I personally would like to see some of the more exploitative practices in the games industry banned), but you are way off.
  - stopratelimit 6y ago
    >Freedom isn't merely the choice between 'Fresh Stripe' toothpaste and 'Total Whitening' toothpaste - it's having the choice to go without even though it's dumb to have your teeth fall out. Disagree, Vermin Supreme 2020.
  - ThrowawayR2 6y ago
    > "There are steps you could take short of a total ban, of course - as we do for other vices. " Yup, there are strict regulations with regard to gambling because of its addictive nature and, let's not kid ourselves, loot boxes are an uncomfortably close analogue of gambling. I would be very much okay with putting lootbox, particularly gacha games, under similar heavy regulation.
dorkwood 6y ago
An old boss of mine was a whale. He was in his 40s and spent 100s of dollars on mobile games. I think it's mainly people with a lack of impulse control.
- vecter 6y ago
  Spending hundreds of dollars on mobile games doesn't make someone a whale imo. More like thousands or tens of thousands over years.
  - 2squirrels 6y ago
    Someone I worked with had a nephew who spent $4000 on I think it was FarmVille in one month. It took them a while but they were able to recover the money because the kid was underage and using the parents credit card.
  - dorkwood 6y ago
    I left out the word "regularly". I'm sure he would have spent a thousand every few months, at least.
nightowl_games 6y ago
I worked in mobile whale hunting. it's like 50% whales, 50% $5 purchasers.
- jonny_eh 6y ago
  It's like political campaigns.
lvturner 6y ago
And that's before we get in to the credit card fraud...
ekianjo 6y ago
When it comes to actual gambling its mostly driven by adults, and not even young ones at that.
TulliusCicero 6y ago
Is there actually evidence of most whale money being from minors? To me that sounds kind of unlikely.

retsibsi 6y ago

'Mainly children and teens' may be true, but I don't think it is obvious without evidence. (Intuitively it seems likely that most of the people involved are kids, but most of the $ are spent by adults, and 'most of the whales' depends on the definition of whale.) But IMO there's no magic line between children and adults that makes it okay to harmfully exploit someone's weaknesses provided they're over 18. I know focusing on children makes sense, because it's even harder to justify in that case, and probably more legally dubious. But I hope we're not implicitly saying it is/would be ethically okay provided they only take advantage of adults.

michaelt 6y ago
> But IMO there's no magic line between children and adults that makes it okay to harmfully exploit someone's weaknesses provided they're over 18. Seems to me freedom of choice isn't just about selecting between good decisions, but having the right to make bad ones. Freedom isn't merely the choice between 'Fresh Stripe' toothpaste and 'Total Whitening' toothpaste - it's having the choice to go without even though it's dumb to have your teeth fall out. Any society willing to ban lootboxes for informed, consenting, mentally competent adults would have no problem with banning porn and smoking and drinking too much and bicycling without a helmet by following the same logic. There are steps you could take short of a total ban, of course - as we do for other vices.
- scrollaway 6y ago
  It's common in societies to ban substances and practices which are toxic and/or harmful to people and those around them. This includes hard drugs (smoking and alcohol get a pass primarily due to a pre-existing legacy userbase and industry, but they wouldn't even sort of get that today, anywhere, in a fresh slate, especially nicotine), unsafe practices on the road (such as not wearing a seat belt), and indeed porn where consent is not explicit and informed (revenge porn and child abuse). And you'll note a lot of economic practices are banned in the Land Of The Free(tm), Ponzi schemes being a good example. Is this unreasonable? If you're a libertarian you might argue it is, but most people think it's a perfectly fine thing to ban. Not saying you're wrong (although I personally would like to see some of the more exploitative practices in the games industry banned), but you are way off.
- stopratelimit 6y ago
  >Freedom isn't merely the choice between 'Fresh Stripe' toothpaste and 'Total Whitening' toothpaste - it's having the choice to go without even though it's dumb to have your teeth fall out. Disagree, Vermin Supreme 2020.
- ThrowawayR2 6y ago
  > "There are steps you could take short of a total ban, of course - as we do for other vices. " Yup, there are strict regulations with regard to gambling because of its addictive nature and, let's not kid ourselves, loot boxes are an uncomfortably close analogue of gambling. I would be very much okay with putting lootbox, particularly gacha games, under similar heavy regulation.

dorkwood 6y ago

An old boss of mine was a whale. He was in his 40s and spent 100s of dollars on mobile games. I think it's mainly people with a lack of impulse control.

vecter 6y ago
Spending hundreds of dollars on mobile games doesn't make someone a whale imo. More like thousands or tens of thousands over years.
- 2squirrels 6y ago
  Someone I worked with had a nephew who spent $4000 on I think it was FarmVille in one month. It took them a while but they were able to recover the money because the kid was underage and using the parents credit card.
- dorkwood 6y ago
  I left out the word "regularly". I'm sure he would have spent a thousand every few months, at least.

nightowl_games 6y ago

I worked in mobile whale hunting. it's like 50% whales, 50% $5 purchasers.

jonny_eh 6y ago
It's like political campaigns.

lvturner 6y ago

And that's before we get in to the credit card fraud...

ekianjo 6y ago

When it comes to actual gambling its mostly driven by adults, and not even young ones at that.

TulliusCicero 6y ago

Is there actually evidence of most whale money being from minors? To me that sounds kind of unlikely.