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"We", as in, "the country". It's part of the history and foundation of the country you agreed to become a citizen of. The nation of today is not isolated from i

by Klinky 6y ago

"We", as in, "the country". It's part of the history and foundation of the country you agreed to become a citizen of. The nation of today is not isolated from it's past. Much benefit was gained from injustices of the past. What is the just thing to do? Sweep it under the rug and act like it didn't matter? What kind of values are those?

sam36 6y ago
>What is the just thing to do? Sweep it under the rug and act like it didn't matter? That has stuck with me and I've been thinking. But I think I got an idea. Maybe we should educate our young about the past, where we came from (fled state sponsored religious persecution to a land that was free). We could also teach about the mistakes that were made, you know, like how we purchased conquered and displaced refugees from muslim warlords and then tried to treat these people as some kind of property. Maybe even go over the past processes and laws that were used to free these people and become an even better society. Maybe even go further, like make/erect some statues of some of the past heroes that actually purchased some of these conquered people but then saw the light and worked towards freedom for all using the Bible as proof that God made only one kind of "mankind" and no one set is superior to another. Maybe even erect some statues of some of these conquered people to show that we are not ashamed of seeing them as people and not property. Basically just kind of educate people so they don't grow up questioning the most basic tenets of their own nation and history? Oh wait...
- Klinky 6y ago
  How does this solve a legal land dispute that has been going on for generations? "We'll mention you in childrens' text books" doesn't do justice.
  - sam36 6y ago
    It doesn't, but I was referring to your more broader statement of "The nation of today is not isolated from it's past." Given the current climate of the last two months, it just reeks of dogma.
    - Klinky 6y ago
      Are you complaining about dogma while referring to the Bible as a source of truth in your previous post?
      - sam36 6y ago
        Seems like you saw the word "Bible" and immediately typed your response... Nonetheless, the bible has been used to promote many ideas through the ages. Regardless of what Obama said years ago ("we are not a Christian nation, but a nation of citizens"), America was/is a Christian nation. The Bible and Christian faith were used in many areas to form the constitution, laws, and even our republic (based on the original notion of "judges" set before Israel in the old testament). Of course none of this is taught in schools anymore (at least I had never heard of it until researching in my adulthood), which is the problem I make a point of.
        Klinky 6y ago
        The accuracy of the Bible and its influence on the US is its own can of worms. It was heavily referenced both for and against slavery, and was certainly not convincing enough proof "that God made only one kind of "mankind" and no one set is superior to another.", to prevent genocide and the subjugation of people of color for centuries. Edit: I see you don't consider the Native American genocide to be actual genocide, so I am going to conclude you're just ignorant of Native American history. It seems you have a very coddled view of American history.
- ivalm 6y ago
  Somehow in all of this you forgot the word genocide. Oh wait...
  - sam36 6y ago
    Debatable on whether "genocide" is the correct term. But sure, use it if you want. "Genocide: The systematic and widespread extermination or attempted extermination of a national, racial, religious, or ethnic group." But I don't think that the giving of land (no matter how terrible the land is) for a group to live on truly counts as "attempted extermination".
    - ivalm 6y ago
      US government displaced and murdered native Americans for a long stretch of history. For multiple tribes this included extermination based on ethnic group. US soldiers acting in official capacity killed defenseless Native American civilians including young children based on their ethnicity. The genocide of Native Americans is well documented.
    - Klinky 6y ago
      Seems like you could say since the Nazis moved the Jews to ghettos and had plans to move them to "Madagascar" it wasn't genocide either.
- objectivetruth 6y ago
  I'm not replying to Sam36 here, but to anyone who read this post: please don't read Sam36's implication that Muslims are to blame for US-style chattel slavery (and the ensuing 400 years of oppression) and blithely believe it to be true. In fact, reading pretty much any scholarly treatment of US slavery (outside of the "Lost Cause" school of thought) should give you an idea of the unfathomable scope of the millions of lives ruined over centuries. It's kind of sickening to see that glossed over as "tried to treat these people as some kind of property" in a hurry to make a point about the current controversy about removing monuments to treason.
ricardo81 6y ago
>sweep it under the carpet As a European (Scot) who lived in Canada with my partner (Ojibwe) it became obvious how ignorant I was of the past wrt all Native American tribes and the indoctrination they were subjected to. I'd mentioned to her that during this BLM movement that the African-American story is seemingly world-known but the Native American story less so. I believe their time will come when there is a greater understanding. Not an expert but my time living on the reserve but it seemed apparent that their society was still experiencing culture shock.
- sequoia 6y ago
  Sometimes referred to as “transgenerational trauma.” It’s something Jews and Native Americans/First Nations people have in common, probably along with most populations who suffered genocide. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgenerational_trauma https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgenerational_trauma
  - ricardo81 6y ago
    Yes. My partner worked in a women's shelter and told me about the 'learned behaviour' that was perhaps the root cause in so many situations. Her grandmother had managed to hide and avoid being taken to one of the Catholic schools when they came into their family home to take her, her grandfather didn't manage it. Easy to see how that kind of trauma in a family could affect the next generations, particularly so if their was abuse - which apparently was rife in the schools they were sent to.
- dghughes 6y ago
  A large part of the stress came from residential schools. Children were taken from their parents to be "raised right" by the government. There is a big debate here in Canada about Canada's founding father John A MacDonald because he approved residential schools. It would be like a debate over George Washington in the US should he be on money, statues erected and so on. Another topic is missing women in indigenous communities. Often murdered by a partner or stranger or simply gone missing without any known reason. It's interesting to see how little talk there is in the US over rights of First Nations (or "Native American") people. It's a daily discussion here in Canada going on for years.

by Klinky 6y ago

sam36 6y ago

>What is the just thing to do? Sweep it under the rug and act like it didn't matter? That has stuck with me and I've been thinking. But I think I got an idea. Maybe we should educate our young about the past, where we came from (fled state sponsored religious persecution to a land that was free). We could also teach about the mistakes that were made, you know, like how we purchased conquered and displaced refugees from muslim warlords and then tried to treat these people as some kind of property. Maybe even go over the past processes and laws that were used to free these people and become an even better society. Maybe even go further, like make/erect some statues of some of the past heroes that actually purchased some of these conquered people but then saw the light and worked towards freedom for all using the Bible as proof that God made only one kind of "mankind" and no one set is superior to another. Maybe even erect some statues of some of these conquered people to show that we are not ashamed of seeing them as people and not property. Basically just kind of educate people so they don't grow up questioning the most basic tenets of their own nation and history? Oh wait...

Klinky 6y ago
How does this solve a legal land dispute that has been going on for generations? "We'll mention you in childrens' text books" doesn't do justice.
- sam36 6y ago
  It doesn't, but I was referring to your more broader statement of "The nation of today is not isolated from it's past." Given the current climate of the last two months, it just reeks of dogma.
  - Klinky 6y ago
    Are you complaining about dogma while referring to the Bible as a source of truth in your previous post?
    - sam36 6y ago
      Seems like you saw the word "Bible" and immediately typed your response... Nonetheless, the bible has been used to promote many ideas through the ages. Regardless of what Obama said years ago ("we are not a Christian nation, but a nation of citizens"), America was/is a Christian nation. The Bible and Christian faith were used in many areas to form the constitution, laws, and even our republic (based on the original notion of "judges" set before Israel in the old testament). Of course none of this is taught in schools anymore (at least I had never heard of it until researching in my adulthood), which is the problem I make a point of.
      - Klinky 6y ago
        The accuracy of the Bible and its influence on the US is its own can of worms. It was heavily referenced both for and against slavery, and was certainly not convincing enough proof "that God made only one kind of "mankind" and no one set is superior to another.", to prevent genocide and the subjugation of people of color for centuries. Edit: I see you don't consider the Native American genocide to be actual genocide, so I am going to conclude you're just ignorant of Native American history. It seems you have a very coddled view of American history.
ivalm 6y ago
Somehow in all of this you forgot the word genocide. Oh wait...
- sam36 6y ago
  Debatable on whether "genocide" is the correct term. But sure, use it if you want. "Genocide: The systematic and widespread extermination or attempted extermination of a national, racial, religious, or ethnic group." But I don't think that the giving of land (no matter how terrible the land is) for a group to live on truly counts as "attempted extermination".
  - ivalm 6y ago
    US government displaced and murdered native Americans for a long stretch of history. For multiple tribes this included extermination based on ethnic group. US soldiers acting in official capacity killed defenseless Native American civilians including young children based on their ethnicity. The genocide of Native Americans is well documented.
  - Klinky 6y ago
    Seems like you could say since the Nazis moved the Jews to ghettos and had plans to move them to "Madagascar" it wasn't genocide either.
objectivetruth 6y ago
I'm not replying to Sam36 here, but to anyone who read this post: please don't read Sam36's implication that Muslims are to blame for US-style chattel slavery (and the ensuing 400 years of oppression) and blithely believe it to be true. In fact, reading pretty much any scholarly treatment of US slavery (outside of the "Lost Cause" school of thought) should give you an idea of the unfathomable scope of the millions of lives ruined over centuries. It's kind of sickening to see that glossed over as "tried to treat these people as some kind of property" in a hurry to make a point about the current controversy about removing monuments to treason.

ricardo81 6y ago

>sweep it under the carpet As a European (Scot) who lived in Canada with my partner (Ojibwe) it became obvious how ignorant I was of the past wrt all Native American tribes and the indoctrination they were subjected to. I'd mentioned to her that during this BLM movement that the African-American story is seemingly world-known but the Native American story less so. I believe their time will come when there is a greater understanding. Not an expert but my time living on the reserve but it seemed apparent that their society was still experiencing culture shock.

sequoia 6y ago
Sometimes referred to as “transgenerational trauma.” It’s something Jews and Native Americans/First Nations people have in common, probably along with most populations who suffered genocide. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgenerational_trauma https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgenerational_trauma
- ricardo81 6y ago
  Yes. My partner worked in a women's shelter and told me about the 'learned behaviour' that was perhaps the root cause in so many situations. Her grandmother had managed to hide and avoid being taken to one of the Catholic schools when they came into their family home to take her, her grandfather didn't manage it. Easy to see how that kind of trauma in a family could affect the next generations, particularly so if their was abuse - which apparently was rife in the schools they were sent to.
dghughes 6y ago
A large part of the stress came from residential schools. Children were taken from their parents to be "raised right" by the government. There is a big debate here in Canada about Canada's founding father John A MacDonald because he approved residential schools. It would be like a debate over George Washington in the US should he be on money, statues erected and so on. Another topic is missing women in indigenous communities. Often murdered by a partner or stranger or simply gone missing without any known reason. It's interesting to see how little talk there is in the US over rights of First Nations (or "Native American") people. It's a daily discussion here in Canada going on for years.