5 ms·

ExSaaSperated: A blog about the struggle to start a sustainable SaaS

170 points by con-cat 6y ago

Thorentis 6y ago
ExSaaSperated: a SaaS to help you build your own unsustainable SaaS.
sky_rw 6y ago
"Also, all these whiz-bang success stories suffer from enormous survivorship bias." Well that's because in 2 years when you finally pull the plug on a failing business so you can pay your bills, you end up shutting down the blog you stopped posting to regularly 14 months ago and nobody can find it anyway because you put it on an 'indie' platform.
chrismorgan 6y ago
There are two more posts at https://exsaasperated.com/ https://exsaasperated.com/ (“who are you?” and “our goal”) that further enlighten (though they still don’t cover what will be being built, I guess that’ll come soon).
- toothbrush 6y ago
  Hey Chris, thanks for visiting. Author here. We actually have several projects we've tried to launch with varying degrees of traction. One of them (https://vistaserv.net https://vistaserv.net) made the rounds here a while ago, actually. We plan to write posts about several of these projects, pick apart what worked and didn't. And, if we come up with resources or techniques that worked well for us, we'll be posting about those, too. Stay tuned :)
alixanderwang 6y ago
I actually feel like I've been hearing a ton about failures, though they're all preceded by "you never hear about failures", and proceeded by, "and then I took what I learned and succeeded". What I actually never hear about is stories of trying to build a SaaS, failing, and then just giving up and going back to being a salaryman and retiring after a few decades. It's either that these stories are rare -- which signals that persistence works --, or the stories are just never shared.
- Sevii 6y ago
  This kind of describes @patio11's career. I still want to build my own SAAS though.
  - pc86 6y ago
    Does it, though? He's sold SaaS businesses for non-trivial sums (though much less than you'd expect if you read strictly his descriptions of it), and spent most of his time consulting and writing before going to Stripe.
- Trasmatta 6y ago
  Maybe not exactly what you're looking for before I haven't retired, but I had a successful side project, quit my job to try to make a living off it, failed to make enough money off it, and went back to a traditional development job. I'm overall happy working for a steady paycheck and benefits again, although there is part of me that is always itching to try again someday. I don't think I will, though. Maybe I'll write about it at some point.
  - SCUSKU 6y ago
    You definitely should, your experience would be valuable to learn from and interesting to read.
- blueboo 6y ago
  “But I learned something” Is an extremely low bar for evaluating an outcome. “But I learned something and applied it to make the next effort a success” is the natural valuable contribution...that we (quite tellingly) almost never hear about.
  - pc86 6y ago
    > “But I learned something and applied it to make the next effort a success” is the natural valuable contribution...that we (quite tellingly) almost never hear about. This is literally every "success" blog post out there. They always start with an early failure and how that launched/pushed/pulled them toward later success.
alextheparrot 6y ago
The hosting of comments through Github is, interesting in a brilliant way. Maybe I've spent too much time triaging issues at work and I'm confusing Stockholm syndrome for affection. Either way, this site has a certain tenderness, thanks for sharing.
- toothbrush 6y ago
  > this site has a certain tenderness, thanks for sharing Thank you so much for the kind words. It really means a lot to us. > comments through Github is interesting in a brilliant way Thank you! Honestly we're just cheap/lazy – we really wanted a super low-maintenance blogging platform, and static pages are amazing IMHO. This gave us "all" of both worlds, sort of.
- fluential 6y ago
  You will like this one https://staticman.net/ https://staticman.net/ same concept
chimen 6y ago
I struggle to find anything "frontpage material" on that page.
jacob_rezi 6y ago
Hello - this is a post I wrote about scaling to 50k users without a marketing budget https://medium.com/rezi-resume/0-to-50-000-users-a-candid-look-into-creative-growth-2774bef993af https://medium.com/rezi-resume/0-to-50-000-users-a-candid-lo... It might be interesting for your blog?
jcun4128 6y ago
I'm trying to get into it but don't know what to make. I follow Indie Hackers/Entrepreneur podcasts/wip.chat/etc... now I'm looking into Shopify stuff, make some niche API connector or something... but it will be a time sink to learn their docs/how stuff works on the Shopify aspect. Possible oversaturated market, etc... but I figure if I cruise through the forums/see recurring problems, maybe I can find something to build. Recently I had a friend who runs a shipping business have me make him a PayPal button generator built into an email template that was mailed out so they could specify a price/tax/name/etc... That was cool, but I would not have come up with that problem on my own as I don't run the particular shipping business he does.
- utkarsh_apoorva 6y ago
  This is a pretty interesting place to be. Since you have not yet committed yourself - so you sort of have a superpower that many of us crave for. There are at least a few ways of thinking about this. The well documented ones 1. Think about problems you've faced. Solve it. 2. Research online, find problems, fix them (what you seem to be doing). Less Documented ones: 1. Pick a product you like - as a customer / user. Deep dive. See what they got right and what they didn't. Who they serve well, and who isn't happy. Then build something similar in a 'different' market (what Notion did to Evernote and Roam is doing to Notion, Freshdesk to Zendesk). 2. Think of 3-5 skills you've got as an individual. Forget products for a moment. Think about people - who can you help with a combination of those skills, better than most (or cheaper than most). Talk to these people. Offer your service. Later build a product around this (Close.com, and if I remember correctly, even Kissmetrics.)
  - jcun4128 6y ago
    I have a 9-5 job currently. Also contribute to a local "code for location" thing. I have some time, I have a bit though generally being single/no responsibilities other than myself. I don't like that I have one income and I'm scared of losing my job sort of thing, granted I get a lot of recruiters hitting me up(though am I qualified, just string matching). > 1. Think about problems you've faced. This mostly it's an attention thing for me, I'm trying to learn Android/make a widget, I did the cross platform app part for the mobile/desktop app, for a centralized thing... this is not something that would make money eg. OneNote/Evernote/etc... Other thing is managing money I have spread sheet tabs. Yeah only thing I use really are the note taking/money managing stuff(not YNAB or something just tabulating). Yeah working with friends is hit and miss... I didn't get paid for that thing I built was about 14 hours(had to figure out PayPal's API(which one)). I actually have few friends, most are in specific niches eg. aero industries. Thanks for the thoughts. edit: I didn't get paid because I'm expensive(to this person)/weird to ask friends for money even though time/expertise costs someone something. Arguable too can you charge for something you don't know... anyway it's still like one of those things where $60/hr or something is too expensive for a person. At the end though, no I have not tried hard enough, I haven't launched anything.
codingdave 6y ago
Almost every SaaS I've worked on did not start as people sitting down saying, "Lets make a SaaS". It started as people fell into a problem space as part of their ongoing work. In those cases, your first customers are already right in front of you, so you build what they need, then iterate to make it more useful for a wider community. There are certainly pain points to find your 10th-100th customer. But if you don't even know who your 1st customer is, you are flying blind.
- skrebbel 6y ago
  It's more general I think: it's hard to build a SaaS without a head start. In your examples, having ~10 launching customers is such a head start. But there's also plenty SaaSes that started building tech for something else, that didn't pan out, but they realized they could sell the tech separately. Eg close.io did this and so did my company talkjs.com. There's likely many more examples. But I agree that if you have to start without something to sell and without customers ready to pay, you're definitely in for a rough ride.
ChrisMarshallNY 6y ago
Cool! I wish you luck. I have authored one project that took ten years to reach maturity (It is now exploding). That allowed me to iterate it, and ensure that it would be top-quality, by the time I tossed the reins over to a new team. It was free, though, and a labor of love[0]. I wrote another project as a "training course." It was sort of a dissertation. The quality is pretty much "off the charts." I had originally thought about selling it, but was told that was a non-starter, because it was written in in PHP[1], so I simply open-sourced it as MIT. Nowadays, I work on client-side code (native Swift for Apple stuff). I am not in a hurry to get back to SaaS. I like the name of the blog. [0] https://medium.com/@ChrisMarshallNY/the-story-of-the-bmlt-8759f2de467d https://medium.com/@ChrisMarshallNY/the-story-of-the-bmlt-87... [1] https://riftvalleysoftware.com/work/open-source-projects/#baobab https://riftvalleysoftware.com/work/open-source-projects/#ba...
- ruste 6y ago
  Interested in why writing it in PHP made selling it a non-starter. I'd expect that if it provided value it wouldn't really matter much what it was written in.
  - ChrisMarshallNY 6y ago
    Because PHP is not "buzzword-worthy." I was told, in no uncertain terms, that the fact it was written in PHP would mean that "no one would take it seriously," and that I would not get anyone interested in implementing it. Considering the lack of interest in the project, I have to agree with that assessment.
hartator 6y ago
> We want to start a SaaS product That’s not how you start a company.
lpellis 6y ago
I find it is hard to start an online company, especially if you do not already have a large network. What happens is you build something, and then.. nothing. I sometimes wonder just what percentage is luck, reaching that right person at the right time. (I launched my product on producthunt today so I'm very aware of the need for an audience )
michaelbuckbee 6y ago
This is likely going to sound too harsh (and the folks behind this seem lovely), but content creation efforts like this are a red flag to me in terms of evaluating whether or not a bootstrapped SAAS is going to "make" it. This isn't because they're inherently bad or that the people writing them have bad intentions, but that they're a time/attention trap. Meta articles like this, "How I made my first $10", "Breaking $1k MRR" and similar tend to do really well in attracting clicks but fail to connect with an actual target audience for whatever it is you're making. This makes them really dangerous as when you're starting out you don't have any "signal" as to what's working and these types seem positive. Unfortunately, they're the equivalent of handing out free candy when your intention is to open a restaurant. These folks would be much further ahead if they instead: 1. Started writing/learning about specific tactics and skills for starting and marketing a SAAS. 2. Randomly picked some industry or vertical and just started writing articles about learning that industry and the problems they had. I say all this as someone who has drunk too deeply of the bootstrapped startup literature well, don't make my mistakes.
- iends 6y ago
  One of the trends I’ve noticed is that people who have minor SaaS success can 5x their income by creating an ebook + course + masterclass about how they did it. Selling shovels in a gold rush....
  - Cenk 6y ago
    Similar to how most of the money in dropshipping is in selling learning materials and a dream to people who want to do dropshipping
  - sudhirj 6y ago
    Every success story is really about people selling the secret of success, which is to sell the secret of success. Twitter is full of this. Every success guru is selling a course about selling courses.
    - mromanuk 6y ago
czbond 6y ago
My suggestion is to look outside of SaaS. Software is much easier to bootstrap in the past decade, increasing competition (from within a customer, and competitors). We're in the phase where every single permutation of what one can do with software is being exhausted. Businesses using the same concepts and business models outside of this scope have potentially less competition, higher available market, and higher upside purchase exit. Someone mentioned patio11, he essentially referenced the lower exit, customer fatigue as why he joined Stripe a few years ago
- CoffeePython 6y ago
  > Businesses using the same concepts and business models outside of this scope have potentially less competition, higher available market, and higher upside purchase exit. What type of businesses are you talking about here? Non-software or just non SaaS?
  - czbond 6y ago
    My line of thinking is this: For the past decade(s), the area of growth has been software. It has sucked in professionals into the industry who would have been biologists, chemists, physicists, etc. So my belief is that those areas are actually void of progress, because 'software' took the intelligence that would have been applied to other areas simply because software often paid 1x-5x more in salary. But now software, in both profession and product - is becoming overly competitive, and will become top heavy with engineers 'stuck' to move forward (in areas of innovation). One can easily see it in what the industry produces to show our phase - the low hanging fruit is gone. Progress is much less innovation, rather than efficiency, measurement, and tooling. Efficiency is like pulling in an MBA to remove the cruft - one can mostly expect linear, smaller gains.
- chrismorgan 6y ago
  > every single permutation of what one can do with software is being exhausted This is not in the slightest bit true. It’s just that most people that you hear about are just executing variations on a theme. But there is vast untapped potential, and also many novel things in the software industry being developed that you just never hear about, because the people making them are not present in this chamber.

170 points by con-cat 6y ago

ExSaaSperated: a SaaS to help you build your own unsustainable SaaS.

"Also, all these whiz-bang success stories suffer from enormous survivorship bias." Well that's because in 2 years when you finally pull the plug on a failing business so you can pay your bills, you end up shutting down the blog you stopped posting to regularly 14 months ago and nobody can find it anyway because you put it on an 'indie' platform.

chrismorgan 6y ago

There are two more posts at https://exsaasperated.com/ https://exsaasperated.com/ (“who are you?” and “our goal”) that further enlighten (though they still don’t cover what will be being built, I guess that’ll come soon).

toothbrush 6y ago
Hey Chris, thanks for visiting. Author here. We actually have several projects we've tried to launch with varying degrees of traction. One of them (https://vistaserv.net https://vistaserv.net) made the rounds here a while ago, actually. We plan to write posts about several of these projects, pick apart what worked and didn't. And, if we come up with resources or techniques that worked well for us, we'll be posting about those, too. Stay tuned :)

alixanderwang 6y ago

I actually feel like I've been hearing a ton about failures, though they're all preceded by "you never hear about failures", and proceeded by, "and then I took what I learned and succeeded". What I actually never hear about is stories of trying to build a SaaS, failing, and then just giving up and going back to being a salaryman and retiring after a few decades. It's either that these stories are rare -- which signals that persistence works --, or the stories are just never shared.

Sevii 6y ago
This kind of describes @patio11's career. I still want to build my own SAAS though.
- pc86 6y ago
  Does it, though? He's sold SaaS businesses for non-trivial sums (though much less than you'd expect if you read strictly his descriptions of it), and spent most of his time consulting and writing before going to Stripe.
Trasmatta 6y ago
Maybe not exactly what you're looking for before I haven't retired, but I had a successful side project, quit my job to try to make a living off it, failed to make enough money off it, and went back to a traditional development job. I'm overall happy working for a steady paycheck and benefits again, although there is part of me that is always itching to try again someday. I don't think I will, though. Maybe I'll write about it at some point.
- SCUSKU 6y ago
  You definitely should, your experience would be valuable to learn from and interesting to read.
blueboo 6y ago
“But I learned something” Is an extremely low bar for evaluating an outcome. “But I learned something and applied it to make the next effort a success” is the natural valuable contribution...that we (quite tellingly) almost never hear about.
- pc86 6y ago
  > “But I learned something and applied it to make the next effort a success” is the natural valuable contribution...that we (quite tellingly) almost never hear about. This is literally every "success" blog post out there. They always start with an early failure and how that launched/pushed/pulled them toward later success.

alextheparrot 6y ago

The hosting of comments through Github is, interesting in a brilliant way. Maybe I've spent too much time triaging issues at work and I'm confusing Stockholm syndrome for affection. Either way, this site has a certain tenderness, thanks for sharing.

toothbrush 6y ago
> this site has a certain tenderness, thanks for sharing Thank you so much for the kind words. It really means a lot to us. > comments through Github is interesting in a brilliant way Thank you! Honestly we're just cheap/lazy – we really wanted a super low-maintenance blogging platform, and static pages are amazing IMHO. This gave us "all" of both worlds, sort of.
fluential 6y ago
You will like this one https://staticman.net/ https://staticman.net/ same concept

chimen 6y ago

I struggle to find anything "frontpage material" on that page.

jacob_rezi 6y ago

Hello - this is a post I wrote about scaling to 50k users without a marketing budget https://medium.com/rezi-resume/0-to-50-000-users-a-candid-look-into-creative-growth-2774bef993af https://medium.com/rezi-resume/0-to-50-000-users-a-candid-lo... It might be interesting for your blog?

jcun4128 6y ago

I'm trying to get into it but don't know what to make. I follow Indie Hackers/Entrepreneur podcasts/wip.chat/etc... now I'm looking into Shopify stuff, make some niche API connector or something... but it will be a time sink to learn their docs/how stuff works on the Shopify aspect. Possible oversaturated market, etc... but I figure if I cruise through the forums/see recurring problems, maybe I can find something to build. Recently I had a friend who runs a shipping business have me make him a PayPal button generator built into an email template that was mailed out so they could specify a price/tax/name/etc... That was cool, but I would not have come up with that problem on my own as I don't run the particular shipping business he does.

utkarsh_apoorva 6y ago
This is a pretty interesting place to be. Since you have not yet committed yourself - so you sort of have a superpower that many of us crave for. There are at least a few ways of thinking about this. The well documented ones 1. Think about problems you've faced. Solve it. 2. Research online, find problems, fix them (what you seem to be doing). Less Documented ones: 1. Pick a product you like - as a customer / user. Deep dive. See what they got right and what they didn't. Who they serve well, and who isn't happy. Then build something similar in a 'different' market (what Notion did to Evernote and Roam is doing to Notion, Freshdesk to Zendesk). 2. Think of 3-5 skills you've got as an individual. Forget products for a moment. Think about people - who can you help with a combination of those skills, better than most (or cheaper than most). Talk to these people. Offer your service. Later build a product around this (Close.com, and if I remember correctly, even Kissmetrics.)
- jcun4128 6y ago
  I have a 9-5 job currently. Also contribute to a local "code for location" thing. I have some time, I have a bit though generally being single/no responsibilities other than myself. I don't like that I have one income and I'm scared of losing my job sort of thing, granted I get a lot of recruiters hitting me up(though am I qualified, just string matching). > 1. Think about problems you've faced. This mostly it's an attention thing for me, I'm trying to learn Android/make a widget, I did the cross platform app part for the mobile/desktop app, for a centralized thing... this is not something that would make money eg. OneNote/Evernote/etc... Other thing is managing money I have spread sheet tabs. Yeah only thing I use really are the note taking/money managing stuff(not YNAB or something just tabulating). Yeah working with friends is hit and miss... I didn't get paid for that thing I built was about 14 hours(had to figure out PayPal's API(which one)). I actually have few friends, most are in specific niches eg. aero industries. Thanks for the thoughts. edit: I didn't get paid because I'm expensive(to this person)/weird to ask friends for money even though time/expertise costs someone something. Arguable too can you charge for something you don't know... anyway it's still like one of those things where $60/hr or something is too expensive for a person. At the end though, no I have not tried hard enough, I haven't launched anything.

codingdave 6y ago

Almost every SaaS I've worked on did not start as people sitting down saying, "Lets make a SaaS". It started as people fell into a problem space as part of their ongoing work. In those cases, your first customers are already right in front of you, so you build what they need, then iterate to make it more useful for a wider community. There are certainly pain points to find your 10th-100th customer. But if you don't even know who your 1st customer is, you are flying blind.

skrebbel 6y ago
It's more general I think: it's hard to build a SaaS without a head start. In your examples, having ~10 launching customers is such a head start. But there's also plenty SaaSes that started building tech for something else, that didn't pan out, but they realized they could sell the tech separately. Eg close.io did this and so did my company talkjs.com. There's likely many more examples. But I agree that if you have to start without something to sell and without customers ready to pay, you're definitely in for a rough ride.

ChrisMarshallNY 6y ago

Cool! I wish you luck. I have authored one project that took ten years to reach maturity (It is now exploding). That allowed me to iterate it, and ensure that it would be top-quality, by the time I tossed the reins over to a new team. It was free, though, and a labor of love[0]. I wrote another project as a "training course." It was sort of a dissertation. The quality is pretty much "off the charts." I had originally thought about selling it, but was told that was a non-starter, because it was written in in PHP[1], so I simply open-sourced it as MIT. Nowadays, I work on client-side code (native Swift for Apple stuff). I am not in a hurry to get back to SaaS. I like the name of the blog. [0] https://medium.com/@ChrisMarshallNY/the-story-of-the-bmlt-8759f2de467d https://medium.com/@ChrisMarshallNY/the-story-of-the-bmlt-87... [1] https://riftvalleysoftware.com/work/open-source-projects/#baobab https://riftvalleysoftware.com/work/open-source-projects/#ba...

ruste 6y ago
Interested in why writing it in PHP made selling it a non-starter. I'd expect that if it provided value it wouldn't really matter much what it was written in.
- ChrisMarshallNY 6y ago
  Because PHP is not "buzzword-worthy." I was told, in no uncertain terms, that the fact it was written in PHP would mean that "no one would take it seriously," and that I would not get anyone interested in implementing it. Considering the lack of interest in the project, I have to agree with that assessment.

hartator 6y ago

> We want to start a SaaS product That’s not how you start a company.

lpellis 6y ago

I find it is hard to start an online company, especially if you do not already have a large network. What happens is you build something, and then.. nothing. I sometimes wonder just what percentage is luck, reaching that right person at the right time. (I launched my product on producthunt today so I'm very aware of the need for an audience )

michaelbuckbee 6y ago

This is likely going to sound too harsh (and the folks behind this seem lovely), but content creation efforts like this are a red flag to me in terms of evaluating whether or not a bootstrapped SAAS is going to "make" it. This isn't because they're inherently bad or that the people writing them have bad intentions, but that they're a time/attention trap. Meta articles like this, "How I made my first $10", "Breaking $1k MRR" and similar tend to do really well in attracting clicks but fail to connect with an actual target audience for whatever it is you're making. This makes them really dangerous as when you're starting out you don't have any "signal" as to what's working and these types seem positive. Unfortunately, they're the equivalent of handing out free candy when your intention is to open a restaurant. These folks would be much further ahead if they instead: 1. Started writing/learning about specific tactics and skills for starting and marketing a SAAS. 2. Randomly picked some industry or vertical and just started writing articles about learning that industry and the problems they had. I say all this as someone who has drunk too deeply of the bootstrapped startup literature well, don't make my mistakes.

iends 6y ago
One of the trends I’ve noticed is that people who have minor SaaS success can 5x their income by creating an ebook + course + masterclass about how they did it. Selling shovels in a gold rush....
- Cenk 6y ago
  Similar to how most of the money in dropshipping is in selling learning materials and a dream to people who want to do dropshipping
- sudhirj 6y ago
  Every success story is really about people selling the secret of success, which is to sell the secret of success. Twitter is full of this. Every success guru is selling a course about selling courses.
  - mromanuk 6y ago

czbond 6y ago

My suggestion is to look outside of SaaS. Software is much easier to bootstrap in the past decade, increasing competition (from within a customer, and competitors). We're in the phase where every single permutation of what one can do with software is being exhausted. Businesses using the same concepts and business models outside of this scope have potentially less competition, higher available market, and higher upside purchase exit. Someone mentioned patio11, he essentially referenced the lower exit, customer fatigue as why he joined Stripe a few years ago

CoffeePython 6y ago
> Businesses using the same concepts and business models outside of this scope have potentially less competition, higher available market, and higher upside purchase exit. What type of businesses are you talking about here? Non-software or just non SaaS?
- czbond 6y ago
  My line of thinking is this: For the past decade(s), the area of growth has been software. It has sucked in professionals into the industry who would have been biologists, chemists, physicists, etc. So my belief is that those areas are actually void of progress, because 'software' took the intelligence that would have been applied to other areas simply because software often paid 1x-5x more in salary. But now software, in both profession and product - is becoming overly competitive, and will become top heavy with engineers 'stuck' to move forward (in areas of innovation). One can easily see it in what the industry produces to show our phase - the low hanging fruit is gone. Progress is much less innovation, rather than efficiency, measurement, and tooling. Efficiency is like pulling in an MBA to remove the cruft - one can mostly expect linear, smaller gains.
chrismorgan 6y ago
> every single permutation of what one can do with software is being exhausted This is not in the slightest bit true. It’s just that most people that you hear about are just executing variations on a theme. But there is vast untapped potential, and also many novel things in the software industry being developed that you just never hear about, because the people making them are not present in this chamber.