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If you really wanted people to read the whole thread you would not have shortcircuited the process and replied upstream. That is what I mean by sophistic and de

by memexy 6y ago

If you really wanted people to read the whole thread you would not have shortcircuited the process and replied upstream. That is what I mean by sophistic and deceptive. It was disingenuous of you to assume I would approve. You should have asked if you wanted to summarize my points and we could have come to an agreement but instead you did something (posting upstream and summarizing and pretending to speak for me) to derail the conversation and actual conclusion (which was actually inconclusive). I was civil throughout this discussion and I don't appreciate how you ended it.

mst 6y ago
> If you really wanted people to read the whole thread you would not have shortcircuited the process and replied upstream. And yet, I explicitly said: this is my (opinionated) summary of the thread that ensued from my sibling comment; if unsure whether I've captured things accurately, please read that whole thread and draw your own conclusions. You are welcome to claim that my explicit invitation to people - in a situation where, as you say, your last comments are 'hidden away behind "more" button' - is deceptive, but given I was actively encouraging people to read things upstream that would otherwise have been, as you said, 'hidden away', I personally do not consider my actions to have been deceptive in the least. As for 'civil', it seems to me that this conversation has, in and of itself, made very clear to anybody reading it that you and I have significantly different definitions of that concept, and how to interpret this fact can only be left as an exercise to the reader.
- memexy 6y ago
  Where was I "un"-civil by your definition and conception of civility? Again, you [mst] are making vague provocations and insinuations and continuing to carry the conversation into a direction that is unproductive and trying to paint me in a poor light. By turning this into a meta-argument you have derailed the original conversation. I used to just walk away from such conversation but realized I'm letting the bullies win when I do that. By walking away I'm letting sophistry become a viable strategy. We will continue this as long as you want. I am not backing down and will continue to argue my position and provide reasons for what I believe and why. You have consistently used bad faith and misleading tactics to derail the entire conversation. Every time I have assumed good faith you have thwarted it. Every time I have extended an explanatory provision you have used it against me by quoting me out of context, and then tried to put words in my mouth and pretended to not have done so. Whereas I have taken no such actions and have always quoted you in context. My actions have been civilized. Yours have been otherwise.
  - mst 6y ago
    I stand by my choice to invite people to read the entire thread and draw their own conclusions.
    - memexy 6y ago
      In case it wasn't clear I will spell it out. That choice was not what was being contended. It was your behavior of bad faith actions that I was contending. You tried to bias the actual argument and paint me in a certain way by quoting me out of context, which I rightfully called out. I encourage people to read as well and reach their own conclusions without me putting words in their mouth or biasing their reasoning as you did in your shortcircuit post. Because rational and reasoned argument requires each individual to weigh the evidence and then respond with compelling arguments for refuting or accepting them.
      - quantumwoke 6y ago
        FWIW: there is at least one HNer (me) who has read both subthreads and completely agrees with your assessment of the situation. 'mst is engaging in those time-honored tactics of the online troll - mischaracterise, redirect, disengage. Unfortunately these bad faith discussions are all too common recently and it's sad to see HN swallow the bait.
        memexy 6y ago
        Even more reason to stand up for what's right. And I appreciate your encouragement. I want more people to act in good faith so I try to model the type of argument I want to see more of through actual actions.
        lyssa17 6y ago
        hello! friendly invite to say hi on reddit if you like :) /u/foobanana
        mst 6y ago
        I am sorry that you consider genuine attempts to get real answers to be trolling with no explanation as to twhy. I continue to stand by my choice to invite people to read the entire thread and draw their own conclusions.

by memexy 6y ago

mst 6y ago

> If you really wanted people to read the whole thread you would not have shortcircuited the process and replied upstream. And yet, I explicitly said: this is my (opinionated) summary of the thread that ensued from my sibling comment; if unsure whether I've captured things accurately, please read that whole thread and draw your own conclusions. You are welcome to claim that my explicit invitation to people - in a situation where, as you say, your last comments are 'hidden away behind "more" button' - is deceptive, but given I was actively encouraging people to read things upstream that would otherwise have been, as you said, 'hidden away', I personally do not consider my actions to have been deceptive in the least. As for 'civil', it seems to me that this conversation has, in and of itself, made very clear to anybody reading it that you and I have significantly different definitions of that concept, and how to interpret this fact can only be left as an exercise to the reader.

memexy 6y ago
Where was I "un"-civil by your definition and conception of civility? Again, you [mst] are making vague provocations and insinuations and continuing to carry the conversation into a direction that is unproductive and trying to paint me in a poor light. By turning this into a meta-argument you have derailed the original conversation. I used to just walk away from such conversation but realized I'm letting the bullies win when I do that. By walking away I'm letting sophistry become a viable strategy. We will continue this as long as you want. I am not backing down and will continue to argue my position and provide reasons for what I believe and why. You have consistently used bad faith and misleading tactics to derail the entire conversation. Every time I have assumed good faith you have thwarted it. Every time I have extended an explanatory provision you have used it against me by quoting me out of context, and then tried to put words in my mouth and pretended to not have done so. Whereas I have taken no such actions and have always quoted you in context. My actions have been civilized. Yours have been otherwise.
- mst 6y ago
  I stand by my choice to invite people to read the entire thread and draw their own conclusions.
  - memexy 6y ago
    In case it wasn't clear I will spell it out. That choice was not what was being contended. It was your behavior of bad faith actions that I was contending. You tried to bias the actual argument and paint me in a certain way by quoting me out of context, which I rightfully called out. I encourage people to read as well and reach their own conclusions without me putting words in their mouth or biasing their reasoning as you did in your shortcircuit post. Because rational and reasoned argument requires each individual to weigh the evidence and then respond with compelling arguments for refuting or accepting them.
    - quantumwoke 6y ago
      FWIW: there is at least one HNer (me) who has read both subthreads and completely agrees with your assessment of the situation. 'mst is engaging in those time-honored tactics of the online troll - mischaracterise, redirect, disengage. Unfortunately these bad faith discussions are all too common recently and it's sad to see HN swallow the bait.
      - memexy 6y ago
        Even more reason to stand up for what's right. And I appreciate your encouragement. I want more people to act in good faith so I try to model the type of argument I want to see more of through actual actions.
      - lyssa17 6y ago
        hello! friendly invite to say hi on reddit if you like :) /u/foobanana
      - mst 6y ago
        I am sorry that you consider genuine attempts to get real answers to be trolling with no explanation as to twhy. I continue to stand by my choice to invite people to read the entire thread and draw their own conclusions.