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I believe your argument is that in a democracy, public sector employees can vote for politicians who will represent their interests and this is equivalent to co

I believe your argument is that in a democracy, public sector employees can vote for politicians who will represent their interests and this is equivalent to collective bargaining. Please let me know if I've misunderstood you because I don't want to argue against a straw man. Let's consider teachers as an example. The top search result in Google tells me that 2% of the population of the US are teachers. With collective bargaining they can do work to rule, go on strike, and other job actions to pressure the government to improve working conditions. With voting they don't have a large enough voting block to push through candidates that will improve their working conditions. They would somehow need to convince over 48% of the population, assuming no gerrymandering, to also vote for the candidate that they want. That seems like a big thing to ask just to ensure an annual cost of living increase.

falcrist 6y ago
It's not just direct voting. There are plenty of other ways to influence culture to sway other voters. And given the limited number of candidates and the frequency with which our elections come down to a few percent, they certainly wouldn't have to sway 48% of the population to influence how elected representatives treat them.
- fredophile 6y ago
  Can you give me an example, other than voting, of how democracy is collective bargaining? You're not considering wedge issues? What if the candidate that would improve your working conditions also has a stance on an issue that you are strongly opposed to? For example, do you vote for the candidate who will give you a small raise but also disagrees with you on abortion? What if all of the candidates feel like siding with you would alienate more people than your voting bloc would bring?
  - falcrist 6y ago
    Can you give me some examples, other than voting, of what constitutes democracy? > You're not considering wedge issues? Maybe our systems of government shouldn't have this weakness. This is what I was talking about when I mentioned the "strong indictment".
    - fredophile 6y ago
      You're the one that wrote, "It's not just direct voting." I'm just asking for an example other than direct voting. I'm legitimately trying to understand your point but so far I still don't see the link between democracy and collective bargaining.
      - falcrist 6y ago
        Well I need to know what your definition of "democracy" encompasses. Examples of things other than direct voting include campaign contributions, talking to the media, going door to door. In the case of teachers, you could talk directly to parents during meetings. There are all kinds of ways to influence elections that go well beyond simply casting your vote.
    - fredophile 6y ago
      It appears like we've hit the max comment depth. This is really meant as a reply to your last comment in this thread. Based on your last comment I think our disagreement is less about what makes a democracy and more about what constitutes collective bargaining. I don't see a difference between the examples you cited and a worker at a private company telling their neighbours to boycott the company until working conditions improve. Both of these are individual actions and unless they're organized at a larger scale the word "collective" doesn't really apply to either of them.

falcrist 6y ago

It's not just direct voting. There are plenty of other ways to influence culture to sway other voters. And given the limited number of candidates and the frequency with which our elections come down to a few percent, they certainly wouldn't have to sway 48% of the population to influence how elected representatives treat them.

fredophile 6y ago
Can you give me an example, other than voting, of how democracy is collective bargaining? You're not considering wedge issues? What if the candidate that would improve your working conditions also has a stance on an issue that you are strongly opposed to? For example, do you vote for the candidate who will give you a small raise but also disagrees with you on abortion? What if all of the candidates feel like siding with you would alienate more people than your voting bloc would bring?
- falcrist 6y ago
  Can you give me some examples, other than voting, of what constitutes democracy? > You're not considering wedge issues? Maybe our systems of government shouldn't have this weakness. This is what I was talking about when I mentioned the "strong indictment".
  - fredophile 6y ago
    You're the one that wrote, "It's not just direct voting." I'm just asking for an example other than direct voting. I'm legitimately trying to understand your point but so far I still don't see the link between democracy and collective bargaining.
    - falcrist 6y ago
      Well I need to know what your definition of "democracy" encompasses. Examples of things other than direct voting include campaign contributions, talking to the media, going door to door. In the case of teachers, you could talk directly to parents during meetings. There are all kinds of ways to influence elections that go well beyond simply casting your vote.
  - fredophile 6y ago
    It appears like we've hit the max comment depth. This is really meant as a reply to your last comment in this thread. Based on your last comment I think our disagreement is less about what makes a democracy and more about what constitutes collective bargaining. I don't see a difference between the examples you cited and a worker at a private company telling their neighbours to boycott the company until working conditions improve. Both of these are individual actions and unless they're organized at a larger scale the word "collective" doesn't really apply to either of them.