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If you're going to put together an inflammatory article the least you could do is dive a little deeper and answer the 'Why' question. Why did black-owned busine

If you're going to put together an inflammatory article the least you could do is dive a little deeper and answer the 'Why' question. Why did black-owned businesses receive less than 2% of PPP Loans?

ceejayoz 6y ago
It doesn't take that much guessing. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/10/business/minority-business-coronavirus-loans.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/10/business/minority-busines... > Racial discrimination in banking is outlawed on paper, but it continues in practice — often in subtle forms. In 2018, for instance, the National Community Reinvestment Coalition, a nonprofit organization that works with banks to increase the flow of private capital into poor and underserved communities, sent “mystery shoppers” to 32 different banks in Los Angeles. It found that potential borrowers with identical financial profiles were treated differently by bankers based on their race. Black and Latino borrowers were asked for more detailed financial documents and were given less information about many banks’ available products than white borrowers.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- danielfoster 6y ago
  Discrimination in lending exists, but at least with PPP loans, there was no in-person consultation. For many businesses it was just an online application. It probably does hold true though that white businesspeople may have better relationships with their bankers, resulting in faster loan processing.
  - ceejayoz 6y ago
    Many lenders required an existing relationship. Disparities in access to banking will absolutely reflect in access to PPP loans.
- macspoofing 6y ago
  You have no basis for linking those two instances. You have no basis to claim there was any intent of any discrimination in the loan program. You have no basis to claim there even was discrimination in the loan program. All those assumptions need evidence, and you just asserted that conclusion. This is very similar reasoning to alien conspiracy theorists, who look at something in the night sky and assert "It can't be A, it can't be B, it can't be C, therefore it must be Aliens" The author was also dishonest. They purposely framed their blog post in a way that would you lead you to this.
  - ceejayoz 6y ago
    Yes, why should we link concrete evidence that minorities are discriminated against in banking with their access to a particular banking program? That would be just crazy.
    - macspoofing 6y ago
      You can't do that because there could be alternative explanations in this specific case (like in every case), even in a world where, as you claim, certain minorities are discriminated against by banks and loans[1]. In such a world you need even more evidence because your biases are pushing in a specific direction and so it takes more work to be objective. You do nobody any good by claiming racism where there is none. In fact you do damage, the same way that hate crime hoaxes and false sexual assault allegations do damage to real hate crime and sexual assault victims. It's the responsible thing to do. And I'm not saying we shouldn't look for an explanation. The null-hypothesis is that these loans are allocated proportionally, so a deviation does require an explanation, which will probably be interesting, most likely multi-variate, and may include a component of discrimination. The nature of that discrimination may be different than what you assumed - so how are you supposed to fix it, if you were too lazy to actually dig to find the actual problem. Why is that controversial? [1] Truth be told, I actually see debt in a negative light. I haven't seen a lot of small business survive when starting with a bank loan - it's like you're setting yourself to fail because not only do you have business expenses, and not only did you way overestimate the sales you were going to do (a common trait of entrepreneurs), but also you have loan payments that drain your revenues. And those loans are usually personally guaranteed, so if your business tanks, you are still responsible for them. I wish debt was harder to come by across the board.
jandrese 6y ago
You'll probably have to do the work yourself. Luckily the Treasury released the data in a convenient format: https://sba.box.com/s/tvb0v5i57oa8gc6b5dcm9cyw7y2ms6pp https://sba.box.com/s/tvb0v5i57oa8gc6b5dcm9cyw7y2ms6pp
ugwigr 6y ago
I wrote the article - I don't think it is inflamatory. It is irrelevant if 0% of business owners are Black. The US Treasury (which controls the IRS, money printing and funds the government) should not abuse its power to favor a certain segment of the population. The government should not bail out private companies.
- missedthecue 6y ago
  I feel like the "don't bail out private companies" narrative applies when doing so prevents creative destruction. When the government straight up bans most companies from doing business, with little warning, and for a prolonged and unpredictable amount of time, I think some level of nuance should be applied.
- macspoofing 6y ago
  Don't gas-light, you knew exactly what you were doing. >The government should not bail out private companies. Approximately 0 people came to that conclusion reading your blog, because you used a dishonest click-bait title at a time of racial sensitivity.

If you're going to put together an inflammatory article the least you could do is dive a little deeper and answer the 'Why' question. Why did black-owned businesses receive less than 2% of PPP Loans?

ceejayoz 6y ago

It doesn't take that much guessing. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/10/business/minority-business-coronavirus-loans.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/10/business/minority-busines... > Racial discrimination in banking is outlawed on paper, but it continues in practice — often in subtle forms. In 2018, for instance, the National Community Reinvestment Coalition, a nonprofit organization that works with banks to increase the flow of private capital into poor and underserved communities, sent “mystery shoppers” to 32 different banks in Los Angeles. It found that potential borrowers with identical financial profiles were treated differently by bankers based on their race. Black and Latino borrowers were asked for more detailed financial documents and were given less information about many banks’ available products than white borrowers.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
danielfoster 6y ago
Discrimination in lending exists, but at least with PPP loans, there was no in-person consultation. For many businesses it was just an online application. It probably does hold true though that white businesspeople may have better relationships with their bankers, resulting in faster loan processing.
- ceejayoz 6y ago
  Many lenders required an existing relationship. Disparities in access to banking will absolutely reflect in access to PPP loans.
macspoofing 6y ago
You have no basis for linking those two instances. You have no basis to claim there was any intent of any discrimination in the loan program. You have no basis to claim there even was discrimination in the loan program. All those assumptions need evidence, and you just asserted that conclusion. This is very similar reasoning to alien conspiracy theorists, who look at something in the night sky and assert "It can't be A, it can't be B, it can't be C, therefore it must be Aliens" The author was also dishonest. They purposely framed their blog post in a way that would you lead you to this.
- ceejayoz 6y ago
  Yes, why should we link concrete evidence that minorities are discriminated against in banking with their access to a particular banking program? That would be just crazy.
  - macspoofing 6y ago
    You can't do that because there could be alternative explanations in this specific case (like in every case), even in a world where, as you claim, certain minorities are discriminated against by banks and loans[1]. In such a world you need even more evidence because your biases are pushing in a specific direction and so it takes more work to be objective. You do nobody any good by claiming racism where there is none. In fact you do damage, the same way that hate crime hoaxes and false sexual assault allegations do damage to real hate crime and sexual assault victims. It's the responsible thing to do. And I'm not saying we shouldn't look for an explanation. The null-hypothesis is that these loans are allocated proportionally, so a deviation does require an explanation, which will probably be interesting, most likely multi-variate, and may include a component of discrimination. The nature of that discrimination may be different than what you assumed - so how are you supposed to fix it, if you were too lazy to actually dig to find the actual problem. Why is that controversial? [1] Truth be told, I actually see debt in a negative light. I haven't seen a lot of small business survive when starting with a bank loan - it's like you're setting yourself to fail because not only do you have business expenses, and not only did you way overestimate the sales you were going to do (a common trait of entrepreneurs), but also you have loan payments that drain your revenues. And those loans are usually personally guaranteed, so if your business tanks, you are still responsible for them. I wish debt was harder to come by across the board.

jandrese 6y ago

You'll probably have to do the work yourself. Luckily the Treasury released the data in a convenient format: https://sba.box.com/s/tvb0v5i57oa8gc6b5dcm9cyw7y2ms6pp https://sba.box.com/s/tvb0v5i57oa8gc6b5dcm9cyw7y2ms6pp

ugwigr 6y ago

I wrote the article - I don't think it is inflamatory. It is irrelevant if 0% of business owners are Black. The US Treasury (which controls the IRS, money printing and funds the government) should not abuse its power to favor a certain segment of the population. The government should not bail out private companies.

missedthecue 6y ago
I feel like the "don't bail out private companies" narrative applies when doing so prevents creative destruction. When the government straight up bans most companies from doing business, with little warning, and for a prolonged and unpredictable amount of time, I think some level of nuance should be applied.
macspoofing 6y ago
Don't gas-light, you knew exactly what you were doing. >The government should not bail out private companies. Approximately 0 people came to that conclusion reading your blog, because you used a dishonest click-bait title at a time of racial sensitivity.