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Can anyone explain to me why Canada has such poor internet service? I kind of understand why countries like Australia and New Zealand don't have great internet

by btmorex 16y ago

Can anyone explain to me why Canada has such poor internet service? I kind of understand why countries like Australia and New Zealand don't have great internet plans, but Canada is right next to the US and yet has far worse service.

kgermino 16y ago
Canada is far less dense than even the United States and internet access is controlled by a duopoly, which is a bad combination for competition or affordable access.
- dmix 16y ago
  Also the regulatory body (CRTC) thats is supposed to be watching over these companies is run entirely by ex-staff of said companies. So it's very similar to the big banks in the US (their negative actions don't have market repercussions because of their ability to dominate the market with the help of regulatory bodies).
- idlewords 16y ago
  Most of Canada lives in a few large metro areas, so density is not a factor (unless those metro areas are getting fantastic Internet service, which other posts in this thread suggest isn't the case).
- alsocasey 16y ago
  People like to point to population density but I find the answer a little too easy - about 80% of Canada's population lives within 100 miles of the US boarder and a similar proportion live in one of 3 dense urban areas (Quebec City - Windsor corridor, Calgary - Edmonton corridor or BC's Lower Mainland.) Moreover, network infrastructure was heavily subsidized by the government and service to rural areas remains heavily subsidized to this day. All that to say, there really is no excuse for how badly we lag behind except for the de facto duopoly.
naz 16y ago
I think for the same reasons as the US. Entrenched, equally-terrible service providers who co-conspire in their shitness. It's just magnified because Canada is so vast.
- mrcharles 16y ago
  Nah, the previous answers have it more right. Strange regulation has enabled this kind of a situation.
  - afterburner 16y ago
    Not strange regulation: regulatory capture, which is a subversion of the regulatory process by putting those being regulated in charge of regulation.
- cheez 16y ago
  If vastness was really the issue, we'd see fiber everywhere in downtown Toronto. But we don't.
forensic 16y ago
- Government-barred foreign investment. - Corrupt duopoly (the collusion is so deeply obvious to anyone not mentally crippled). - Regulatory capture http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture
cheez 16y ago
Because we let the politicians run us.
marklabedz 16y ago
You make it sound like the US has something particularly good relative to the rest of the world. If only that were the case. One such example, Comcast and P2P: http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-08-183A1.pdf http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-08-183...
masmullin 16y ago
The governing body (CRTC) is corrupt. It's obvious to everyone, and I'm basing my vote on whether something is done to clean up that organization or not.
jlgosse 16y ago
The service of our internet is fine for the most part. If I remember correctly, we even attained higher speeds than the US when using Netflix. The problem stems from pricing, support and ridiculous rules - like insane caps and overage fees.
sjs 16y ago
I don't think we have far worse service than the US. North America lags parts of Europe and Asia by a wide margin, but I fail to see how the US is ahead of Canada. Rural areas here are often underserved and it's no secret we are probably as bad as the US on that front. But worse? I doubt it. My family in Barnwell, Alberta (pop. 600) has at least DSL these days, and possibly even cable, delivering streaming video and all that without any trouble. There are more remote locations so maybe it's not representative but it's the only info I have personally verified on that. I live in BC and use Shaw's network to transfer at least 100 gigs per month, every month, at about 15mbps down and about 0.5 to 2 mbps up (like everyone else in North America). This costs $40/mo or something like that. I've done this for over 7 years and have received exactly 1 email from Shaw to inform me that I'm exceeding my limit. The email politely asked that I not do so and I ignored it without hearing anything further. When mobile I use my phone as a 3G modem tethering my notebook and/or iPad to it using BlueTooth or WiFi. I have 6 GB of transfer each month and regularly use 2 to 6 GB each month. Speeds are pretty good at around 2 to 3 mbps down and something typically abysmal up. I pay $20/mo for the data service. I have a choice in service on both fronts. Not enough choice for my liking, but a choice nonetheless. So how is Canada worse than the US? I think we need to establish that the situation is indeed poorer here than in the US before we ask why. Looks like the % of population online is similar: http://www.internetworldstats.com/stats14.htm#north http://www.internetworldstats.com/stats14.htm#north Any other relevant data on this?
- potatolicious 16y ago
  I've lived in Toronto, Ottawa, London, Waterloo, and Vancouver - and let me say Shaw's service is not the norm for the rest of Canada. I live in the US now and I can say confidently that US home broadband is well ahead of most of Canada (particularly, Ontario), where the data caps are onerous, throttling and packet shaping extreme, prices sky-high, and your throughput is not anywhere near advertised. Ontario is a complete internet backwater by any measure.
  - electromagnetic 16y ago
    I moved from the UK to the Toronto area and I have to say that Canada is the fall pile from a crap-chute. I'm currently with Cogeco cable and they're mostly accurate with their throughput even close to peak times, however the price is high and the bandwidth amount is appallingly low. I'm actually lucky that being tech-knowledgeable I've been able to deal with their workers well (it helps one of my friends works there, but didn't help when I moved into my apartment as he couldn't do the install) so they'll max-out my up and down (my mother-in-law has 3mbps upload when she should have ~500K thanks to me talking to the guy).
rdouble 16y ago
Australia has bad internet for reasons similar to Canada.
dhughes 16y ago
It wasn't always bad but it is getting worse, back in 1994 I had at least four, if not more, ISP companies to choose from in my small little corner of Canada. Now that been whittled down to two, there are others but it involves cellular sticks and some long-range wifi involving grain silos. My local ISP offers 5, 10, 15, 30 and 100Mbps service but the 30 and 100Mbps are capped at 250GB, I have 15Mbps/1Mbps without a cap since I have had it before caps were implemented. So choice of an ISP is less, speeds are up but caps have appeared.
zerohp 16y ago
This is not quite as bad as what Mediacom, a large US cable ISP is doing on their network. They are modifying TCP in transit to change 404 responses from websites into a 200 response with a line of javascript to redirect the browser to their own search engine. They've been receiving non-stop complaints for 2 months and there's still no way to opt-out. A month ago they were caught injecting ad's on top of google.com and apple.com, as well as replacing AdSense on arbitrary websites with their own advertising. http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/Mediacom-Injecting-Their-Ads-Into-Other-Websites-112918 http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/Mediacom-Injecting-Their-...
- matthewlyle 16y ago
  Rogers, the isp from the article, has already done 404 redirection. http://www.nowpublic.com/tech-biz/rogers-customers-get-ad-laden-404-sites http://www.nowpublic.com/tech-biz/rogers-customers-get-ad-la... Oh, Canada.

by btmorex 16y ago

kgermino 16y ago

Canada is far less dense than even the United States and internet access is controlled by a duopoly, which is a bad combination for competition or affordable access.

dmix 16y ago
Also the regulatory body (CRTC) thats is supposed to be watching over these companies is run entirely by ex-staff of said companies. So it's very similar to the big banks in the US (their negative actions don't have market repercussions because of their ability to dominate the market with the help of regulatory bodies).
idlewords 16y ago
Most of Canada lives in a few large metro areas, so density is not a factor (unless those metro areas are getting fantastic Internet service, which other posts in this thread suggest isn't the case).
alsocasey 16y ago
People like to point to population density but I find the answer a little too easy - about 80% of Canada's population lives within 100 miles of the US boarder and a similar proportion live in one of 3 dense urban areas (Quebec City - Windsor corridor, Calgary - Edmonton corridor or BC's Lower Mainland.) Moreover, network infrastructure was heavily subsidized by the government and service to rural areas remains heavily subsidized to this day. All that to say, there really is no excuse for how badly we lag behind except for the de facto duopoly.

naz 16y ago

I think for the same reasons as the US. Entrenched, equally-terrible service providers who co-conspire in their shitness. It's just magnified because Canada is so vast.

mrcharles 16y ago
Nah, the previous answers have it more right. Strange regulation has enabled this kind of a situation.
- afterburner 16y ago
  Not strange regulation: regulatory capture, which is a subversion of the regulatory process by putting those being regulated in charge of regulation.
cheez 16y ago
If vastness was really the issue, we'd see fiber everywhere in downtown Toronto. But we don't.

forensic 16y ago

- Government-barred foreign investment. - Corrupt duopoly (the collusion is so deeply obvious to anyone not mentally crippled). - Regulatory capture http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture

cheez 16y ago

Because we let the politicians run us.

marklabedz 16y ago

You make it sound like the US has something particularly good relative to the rest of the world. If only that were the case. One such example, Comcast and P2P: http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-08-183A1.pdf http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-08-183...

masmullin 16y ago

The governing body (CRTC) is corrupt. It's obvious to everyone, and I'm basing my vote on whether something is done to clean up that organization or not.

jlgosse 16y ago

The service of our internet is fine for the most part. If I remember correctly, we even attained higher speeds than the US when using Netflix. The problem stems from pricing, support and ridiculous rules - like insane caps and overage fees.

sjs 16y ago

I don't think we have far worse service than the US. North America lags parts of Europe and Asia by a wide margin, but I fail to see how the US is ahead of Canada. Rural areas here are often underserved and it's no secret we are probably as bad as the US on that front. But worse? I doubt it. My family in Barnwell, Alberta (pop. 600) has at least DSL these days, and possibly even cable, delivering streaming video and all that without any trouble. There are more remote locations so maybe it's not representative but it's the only info I have personally verified on that. I live in BC and use Shaw's network to transfer at least 100 gigs per month, every month, at about 15mbps down and about 0.5 to 2 mbps up (like everyone else in North America). This costs $40/mo or something like that. I've done this for over 7 years and have received exactly 1 email from Shaw to inform me that I'm exceeding my limit. The email politely asked that I not do so and I ignored it without hearing anything further. When mobile I use my phone as a 3G modem tethering my notebook and/or iPad to it using BlueTooth or WiFi. I have 6 GB of transfer each month and regularly use 2 to 6 GB each month. Speeds are pretty good at around 2 to 3 mbps down and something typically abysmal up. I pay $20/mo for the data service. I have a choice in service on both fronts. Not enough choice for my liking, but a choice nonetheless. So how is Canada worse than the US? I think we need to establish that the situation is indeed poorer here than in the US before we ask why. Looks like the % of population online is similar: http://www.internetworldstats.com/stats14.htm#north http://www.internetworldstats.com/stats14.htm#north Any other relevant data on this?

potatolicious 16y ago
I've lived in Toronto, Ottawa, London, Waterloo, and Vancouver - and let me say Shaw's service is not the norm for the rest of Canada. I live in the US now and I can say confidently that US home broadband is well ahead of most of Canada (particularly, Ontario), where the data caps are onerous, throttling and packet shaping extreme, prices sky-high, and your throughput is not anywhere near advertised. Ontario is a complete internet backwater by any measure.
- electromagnetic 16y ago
  I moved from the UK to the Toronto area and I have to say that Canada is the fall pile from a crap-chute. I'm currently with Cogeco cable and they're mostly accurate with their throughput even close to peak times, however the price is high and the bandwidth amount is appallingly low. I'm actually lucky that being tech-knowledgeable I've been able to deal with their workers well (it helps one of my friends works there, but didn't help when I moved into my apartment as he couldn't do the install) so they'll max-out my up and down (my mother-in-law has 3mbps upload when she should have ~500K thanks to me talking to the guy).

rdouble 16y ago

Australia has bad internet for reasons similar to Canada.

dhughes 16y ago

It wasn't always bad but it is getting worse, back in 1994 I had at least four, if not more, ISP companies to choose from in my small little corner of Canada. Now that been whittled down to two, there are others but it involves cellular sticks and some long-range wifi involving grain silos. My local ISP offers 5, 10, 15, 30 and 100Mbps service but the 30 and 100Mbps are capped at 250GB, I have 15Mbps/1Mbps without a cap since I have had it before caps were implemented. So choice of an ISP is less, speeds are up but caps have appeared.

zerohp 16y ago

This is not quite as bad as what Mediacom, a large US cable ISP is doing on their network. They are modifying TCP in transit to change 404 responses from websites into a 200 response with a line of javascript to redirect the browser to their own search engine. They've been receiving non-stop complaints for 2 months and there's still no way to opt-out. A month ago they were caught injecting ad's on top of google.com and apple.com, as well as replacing AdSense on arbitrary websites with their own advertising. http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/Mediacom-Injecting-Their-Ads-Into-Other-Websites-112918 http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/Mediacom-Injecting-Their-...

matthewlyle 16y ago
Rogers, the isp from the article, has already done 404 redirection. http://www.nowpublic.com/tech-biz/rogers-customers-get-ad-laden-404-sites http://www.nowpublic.com/tech-biz/rogers-customers-get-ad-la... Oh, Canada.