5 ms·

For the individual to make a claim that: "They are a force which exists to terrorize working class people in order to force them to work for minimum wage. They

by monksy 6y ago

For the individual to make a claim that: "They are a force which exists to terrorize working class people in order to force them to work for minimum wage. They are an investment by the ruling class which allows them to maintain their profits on marginalized workers." Is just over the top absurdist. It's easily debunked by asking someone making above minimal wage "are you being forced to work by the police?" Will they bust down your door and address you for failure to accept employment at minimum wage?

Latty 6y ago
I'm not saying I agree with the argument necessarily, but your counter-argument here is obviously flawed: oppressed peoples can't speak their mind freely, and may not have the information to be able to understand their situation fully. To claim that just because you ask someone "are you being oppressed" and they say "no", that they are therefore not being oppressed seems naive at best.
- monksy 6y ago
  > oppressed peoples can't speak their mind freely They can't? The government is arresting these people for speaking? If so we have a 1st amendment violation. Private corporations? That's an issue between the person and the corporation. We don't have rights protecting speech there and protecting that agreement [staying employeed]. However, the private insitution do not have the right to imprison someone over speech they do not like. > may not have the information to be able to understand their situation fully Are you talking about the education about this? The federal system has a minimum amount of education guaranteed per person. Typically most of the economy is run by people who have the education and skills. As an individual you do have the right to congregate with others and speak with each others about situations. Creating a union is legal. (Although that's an annoyingly controversial practice) > To claim that just because you ask someone "are you being oppressed" and they say "no", that they are therefore not being oppressed seems naive at best. That is your judgment and evaluation of the situation. Why should we believe this guy Latty on the internet about a third party's situation?
- throwaway894345 6y ago
  I've been a member of the alleged oppress class and can confirm that we are indeed not oppressed and there is no police conspiracy that has ever prevented me or my "oppressed" working class family, friends, etc from speaking up. Of course, if you're really bent on the conspiracy explanation, you might say that I'm still oppressed and I'm saying this in duress (me denying my oppression is proof of my oppression, ordeal by water, etc).
  - monksy 6y ago
    What's scary about the posts above is they're making the claim that you are not capable of identifying yourself as an oppressed class. Step-aside and let them be your hero! /s
tsimionescu 6y ago
Well, can you sleep on the street in an American city? Can you solicit charity? Are you allowed to eat a piece of bread to avoid dying of hunger, even if you have no money? Or will the police fine you and jail you? I don't agree with your reading of the original argument, but if you want to take it extremely literally, the police do actually force you to work, assuming you do not have money or relations to support yourself without working. And of course, the prison system will literally force you to work if you get that far. Of course, they are doing this through their enforcement of local, state, or federal laws, not by their own mandate, but they are still the ones ultimately doing these actions. Of course, there are much more faitfhful readings of the original argument that have more nuanced responses.
- monksy 6y ago
  Depends on where you are, where the local law is, etc. "Allowed to eat a piece of bread to avoid dying of hunger" .. is there a law against it? I'm not sure what you're trying to get at. Our society is based on trade. They also have charities and shelters to help those who don't have it.
- throwaway894345 6y ago
  > Well, can you sleep on the street in an American city? Can you solicit charity? Are you allowed to eat a piece of bread to avoid dying of hunger, even if you have no money? In every major US city I’ve been to you can do this.

by monksy 6y ago

Latty 6y ago

I'm not saying I agree with the argument necessarily, but your counter-argument here is obviously flawed: oppressed peoples can't speak their mind freely, and may not have the information to be able to understand their situation fully. To claim that just because you ask someone "are you being oppressed" and they say "no", that they are therefore not being oppressed seems naive at best.

monksy 6y ago
> oppressed peoples can't speak their mind freely They can't? The government is arresting these people for speaking? If so we have a 1st amendment violation. Private corporations? That's an issue between the person and the corporation. We don't have rights protecting speech there and protecting that agreement [staying employeed]. However, the private insitution do not have the right to imprison someone over speech they do not like. > may not have the information to be able to understand their situation fully Are you talking about the education about this? The federal system has a minimum amount of education guaranteed per person. Typically most of the economy is run by people who have the education and skills. As an individual you do have the right to congregate with others and speak with each others about situations. Creating a union is legal. (Although that's an annoyingly controversial practice) > To claim that just because you ask someone "are you being oppressed" and they say "no", that they are therefore not being oppressed seems naive at best. That is your judgment and evaluation of the situation. Why should we believe this guy Latty on the internet about a third party's situation?
throwaway894345 6y ago
I've been a member of the alleged oppress class and can confirm that we are indeed not oppressed and there is no police conspiracy that has ever prevented me or my "oppressed" working class family, friends, etc from speaking up. Of course, if you're really bent on the conspiracy explanation, you might say that I'm still oppressed and I'm saying this in duress (me denying my oppression is proof of my oppression, ordeal by water, etc).
- monksy 6y ago
  What's scary about the posts above is they're making the claim that you are not capable of identifying yourself as an oppressed class. Step-aside and let them be your hero! /s

tsimionescu 6y ago

Well, can you sleep on the street in an American city? Can you solicit charity? Are you allowed to eat a piece of bread to avoid dying of hunger, even if you have no money? Or will the police fine you and jail you? I don't agree with your reading of the original argument, but if you want to take it extremely literally, the police do actually force you to work, assuming you do not have money or relations to support yourself without working. And of course, the prison system will literally force you to work if you get that far. Of course, they are doing this through their enforcement of local, state, or federal laws, not by their own mandate, but they are still the ones ultimately doing these actions. Of course, there are much more faitfhful readings of the original argument that have more nuanced responses.

monksy 6y ago
Depends on where you are, where the local law is, etc. "Allowed to eat a piece of bread to avoid dying of hunger" .. is there a law against it? I'm not sure what you're trying to get at. Our society is based on trade. They also have charities and shelters to help those who don't have it.
throwaway894345 6y ago
> Well, can you sleep on the street in an American city? Can you solicit charity? Are you allowed to eat a piece of bread to avoid dying of hunger, even if you have no money? In every major US city I’ve been to you can do this.