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I'm curious as to how these tests compare to the US SAT. You can take the SAT multiple times and submit your best attempt. In this story, the test seems one and

I'm curious as to how these tests compare to the US SAT. You can take the SAT multiple times and submit your best attempt. In this story, the test seems one and done. You get 1 attempt and you either get in, or you don't. Also reminds me of the story from India like 1 or 2 years ago where a test had faulty answers and people thought they didn't get into university because of that

Falloodude 6y ago
This test is absolutely brutal compared to the SAT. Imagine if US students were subjected to three days of testing, eight hours each day, that included all the SAT II subjects plus regular SAT subject matter. Oh, and throw in a whole section on Middle English, too.
- airstrike 6y ago
  In Brazil, you're tested on 10+ subjects, ~half of which are open questions and the other half are multiple choice, plus an essay. Which subject goes in each of those categories depends on the major you're applying for, so you have to decide what you'll want to study in university at age ~17 (or prior to that, really, when you're 15 in High School so you can focus your studies on the harder questions). For instance, if you want to go to Med School (which is an undergrad course in Brazil), you need to know all things Biology, from Nemathelminthes to the Krebs Cycle. Conversely, if you want to go Law School (also undergrad) or major in History, you'll need to know everything that happened between Plato and Gorbachev including really in-depth stuff on Brazilian history. The problem is, all of the High School classes are the same regardless of your intended exam – you have to learn all of the above for school along with everyone else. And you get to take the same exam for each university you apply to, meaning you basically spend a year taking exams at various dates for all the good universities. Each major has X number of spots available to candidates, to the top X scores get in. Your extracurriculars, who you are as a person, anything on your resume is irrelevant. All that matters is your score. Want to switch majors? Gotta drop out, take the exam again and restart your university life. The SAT by comparison is an absolute joke of an exam
  - frandroid 6y ago
    > Want to switch majors? Gotta drop out, take the exam again and restart your university life. Damn.
  - distances 6y ago
    > Your extracurriculars, who you are as a person, anything on your resume is irrelevant. All that matters is your score. Sounds absolutely brutal. That said, I was caught with the quoted paragraph. Why should your extracurricular hobbies or "you as a person" matter? As far as I see, all that should be considered in university admissions is indeed your test scores.
    - ghaff 6y ago
      >Why should your extracurricular hobbies or "you as a person" matter? They certainly do at elite US schools. The logic is that there's no shortage of students who could handle the academic work but Harvard or even MIT aren't looking just to admit the students who did best on an exam. Added: The way it at least used to be done (and I assume this still applies at least somewhat) was that quantitative academic scores are used to set something of a floor but, beyond that, they were just one of the factors that went into admissions decisions. (With weights and other considerations doubtless varying by school.)
      - walshemj 6y ago
        UNi's want to make sure you have the soft skills to complete the course as well as pure academics
    - sethhochberg 6y ago
      You'll see the term "well rounded" thrown around a lot in discussions like this. The idea is that elite schools (or even just good ones) can take their pick of academic high-performers, so they seek out students who are more than just academic high performers. They become very interested in questions like "does this person have volunteer experience that might have exposed them to a worldview larger than themselves?", "do they have a sport or hobby they enjoy which might provide them a boon in mental health?", "have they done anything which would require practical application of skills or collaboration beyond raw book learning?" The same kind of thing comes up in job interviews all the time. As a hiring manager, I'm of course most interested in whether the candidate can perform the hard requirements of the job as described. But I'd also like signals about whether you're at risk for burnout, whether you might have empathy for differing points of view, or whether you can think on your feet in non-ideal scenarios or whether you'll crumble if a plan changes or a compromise must be found. People are complex, and well-roundedness is a worthwhile goal on its own for a complex world. There are relatively few scenarios outside of standardized testing where raw academic or technical ability is the exclusive measure of a person.
- linuxftw 6y ago
  Seems like a lot of gate keeping, especially the Middle English part.
- viklove 6y ago
  Sounds like AP testing, which is required for most competitive institutions.
  - bllguo 6y ago
    ap testing is a lot shorter, clearly not as comprehensive, and graded very leniently in comparison
    - kolanos 6y ago
      How do you know this? Many posters here commenting authoritatively about two educational systems...
      - bllguo 6y ago
        What do you take issue with? The first two are clearly factual. AP tests are limited to a single subject and are 2-3 hours in length. My comment on grading is also pretty objective, imo. Your AP score is 1-5. And the curve is crazy; when I took AP Physics C E&M I would have gotten a 5 whether I scored 60% or 100%. When reported, though, nobody will know what percentage of the points you scored. OTOH gaokao scores are reported in full.
  - toast0 6y ago
    My understanding is AP test results are usually used to grant credit for college classes, and not as an admission requirement? I guess it could be a factor in admissions, too, but I recall mostly people doing it to get a bit of a head start towards graduation, rather than to get a better shot at admission. (People passing AP tests are likely to get in _somewhere_, even if not their first choice)
    - albntomat0 6y ago
      When I applied to college (recently, not that recently), AP test results were definitely used as part of admissions, in a similar fashion to SAT IIs.
HeavenFox 6y ago
These exams differ from SAT in three major ways. First, they are offered once a year. Didn't do as well as you hope? Try again next year. Second, the material is significantly harder. Take math as an example. The exam questions are a lot closer to AMC/AIME than to SAT. In fact, suppose language is not a problem, many Chinese middle schooler would do pretty well on SAT's math section. Also you are not allowed any calculator. Finally, for the vast majority of students, the test score is literally the only factor deciding whether you get into college. Basically, you will provide an ordered list of preferences to colleges and majors, and the student with top score's request would be satisfied first, then the second, the third, etc.
- anonymousDan 6y ago
  Seems a pretty fair system to me (horrendous abuses like in the article aside)
- Balgair 6y ago
  India has similar systems as well. One 'neat' tweak that the Indians take is the publication of the scores. You find out how you did because your name and score are printed in the newspaper, along with everyone else's. So all the gossipy aunties and your folk's friends know your score and you know the scores of everyone else in school. The social pressure to do well is insane. Your score reflects on your family, not just you.
  - stordoff 6y ago
    Vaguely reminds me of the Cambridge (UK) system. Your scores can be checked online, and you can now request they not be published, but the way everyone in my social group found out their results was to make the twenty minute walk to the University admin buildings and look at the printed list posted outside. It got the "What did you get?" conversations out of the way pretty quickly!
  - enitihas 6y ago
    Publications of scores doesn't happen any more, atleast for the exams similar to the gaokao, which would be the JEE. It happened only for localised exams AFAIK, where almost all applicants were local, and the pool was small enough to be printed on a newspaper. In the pre internet era, it might have been necessary though, since it wouldn't have been possible to mail all scores and expect perfect delivery in the rural parts of the country. But the internet has ensured almost all test results are online now and not published openly.
markus_zhang 6y ago
It's once a year and in general I'd say they are tougher than SAT. Here is what I know back then as a student who took GaoKao in the 90s: 1. GaoKao also has provincial variants. For example, back in the year when I took GaoKao, my city used a form called "3+1", which means 3 primary (Chinese, Math and English) plus 1 auxiliary. You can choose the auxiliary at the end of 11th grade, and the choices are Politics, History, Biology, Physics, Chemistry, etc. Other provinces used different forms but the majority were and still are on "3+2", so instead of one auxiliary they have to prepare for two. From what I recalled, a few years after some provinces switched to 3+X (X depends on your choice). You still only get 1 exam for the X though. 2. Different universities have different entry scores for different provinces. For example, I got a score of 420/600 I think? The university I went to actually charged different entry scores for different provinces. It makes sense in one way, as different provinces have different forms of GaoKao, but overall it's very unfair to students from less developed areas. I won't expand the reasoning from here but it has been a huge debate since decades ago.

Falloodude 6y ago

This test is absolutely brutal compared to the SAT. Imagine if US students were subjected to three days of testing, eight hours each day, that included all the SAT II subjects plus regular SAT subject matter. Oh, and throw in a whole section on Middle English, too.

airstrike 6y ago
In Brazil, you're tested on 10+ subjects, ~half of which are open questions and the other half are multiple choice, plus an essay. Which subject goes in each of those categories depends on the major you're applying for, so you have to decide what you'll want to study in university at age ~17 (or prior to that, really, when you're 15 in High School so you can focus your studies on the harder questions). For instance, if you want to go to Med School (which is an undergrad course in Brazil), you need to know all things Biology, from Nemathelminthes to the Krebs Cycle. Conversely, if you want to go Law School (also undergrad) or major in History, you'll need to know everything that happened between Plato and Gorbachev including really in-depth stuff on Brazilian history. The problem is, all of the High School classes are the same regardless of your intended exam – you have to learn all of the above for school along with everyone else. And you get to take the same exam for each university you apply to, meaning you basically spend a year taking exams at various dates for all the good universities. Each major has X number of spots available to candidates, to the top X scores get in. Your extracurriculars, who you are as a person, anything on your resume is irrelevant. All that matters is your score. Want to switch majors? Gotta drop out, take the exam again and restart your university life. The SAT by comparison is an absolute joke of an exam
- frandroid 6y ago
  > Want to switch majors? Gotta drop out, take the exam again and restart your university life. Damn.
- distances 6y ago
  > Your extracurriculars, who you are as a person, anything on your resume is irrelevant. All that matters is your score. Sounds absolutely brutal. That said, I was caught with the quoted paragraph. Why should your extracurricular hobbies or "you as a person" matter? As far as I see, all that should be considered in university admissions is indeed your test scores.
  - ghaff 6y ago
    >Why should your extracurricular hobbies or "you as a person" matter? They certainly do at elite US schools. The logic is that there's no shortage of students who could handle the academic work but Harvard or even MIT aren't looking just to admit the students who did best on an exam. Added: The way it at least used to be done (and I assume this still applies at least somewhat) was that quantitative academic scores are used to set something of a floor but, beyond that, they were just one of the factors that went into admissions decisions. (With weights and other considerations doubtless varying by school.)
    - walshemj 6y ago
      UNi's want to make sure you have the soft skills to complete the course as well as pure academics
  - sethhochberg 6y ago
    You'll see the term "well rounded" thrown around a lot in discussions like this. The idea is that elite schools (or even just good ones) can take their pick of academic high-performers, so they seek out students who are more than just academic high performers. They become very interested in questions like "does this person have volunteer experience that might have exposed them to a worldview larger than themselves?", "do they have a sport or hobby they enjoy which might provide them a boon in mental health?", "have they done anything which would require practical application of skills or collaboration beyond raw book learning?" The same kind of thing comes up in job interviews all the time. As a hiring manager, I'm of course most interested in whether the candidate can perform the hard requirements of the job as described. But I'd also like signals about whether you're at risk for burnout, whether you might have empathy for differing points of view, or whether you can think on your feet in non-ideal scenarios or whether you'll crumble if a plan changes or a compromise must be found. People are complex, and well-roundedness is a worthwhile goal on its own for a complex world. There are relatively few scenarios outside of standardized testing where raw academic or technical ability is the exclusive measure of a person.
linuxftw 6y ago
Seems like a lot of gate keeping, especially the Middle English part.
viklove 6y ago
Sounds like AP testing, which is required for most competitive institutions.
- bllguo 6y ago
  ap testing is a lot shorter, clearly not as comprehensive, and graded very leniently in comparison
  - kolanos 6y ago
    How do you know this? Many posters here commenting authoritatively about two educational systems...
    - bllguo 6y ago
      What do you take issue with? The first two are clearly factual. AP tests are limited to a single subject and are 2-3 hours in length. My comment on grading is also pretty objective, imo. Your AP score is 1-5. And the curve is crazy; when I took AP Physics C E&M I would have gotten a 5 whether I scored 60% or 100%. When reported, though, nobody will know what percentage of the points you scored. OTOH gaokao scores are reported in full.
- toast0 6y ago
  My understanding is AP test results are usually used to grant credit for college classes, and not as an admission requirement? I guess it could be a factor in admissions, too, but I recall mostly people doing it to get a bit of a head start towards graduation, rather than to get a better shot at admission. (People passing AP tests are likely to get in _somewhere_, even if not their first choice)
  - albntomat0 6y ago
    When I applied to college (recently, not that recently), AP test results were definitely used as part of admissions, in a similar fashion to SAT IIs.

HeavenFox 6y ago

These exams differ from SAT in three major ways. First, they are offered once a year. Didn't do as well as you hope? Try again next year. Second, the material is significantly harder. Take math as an example. The exam questions are a lot closer to AMC/AIME than to SAT. In fact, suppose language is not a problem, many Chinese middle schooler would do pretty well on SAT's math section. Also you are not allowed any calculator. Finally, for the vast majority of students, the test score is literally the only factor deciding whether you get into college. Basically, you will provide an ordered list of preferences to colleges and majors, and the student with top score's request would be satisfied first, then the second, the third, etc.

anonymousDan 6y ago
Seems a pretty fair system to me (horrendous abuses like in the article aside)
Balgair 6y ago
India has similar systems as well. One 'neat' tweak that the Indians take is the publication of the scores. You find out how you did because your name and score are printed in the newspaper, along with everyone else's. So all the gossipy aunties and your folk's friends know your score and you know the scores of everyone else in school. The social pressure to do well is insane. Your score reflects on your family, not just you.
- stordoff 6y ago
  Vaguely reminds me of the Cambridge (UK) system. Your scores can be checked online, and you can now request they not be published, but the way everyone in my social group found out their results was to make the twenty minute walk to the University admin buildings and look at the printed list posted outside. It got the "What did you get?" conversations out of the way pretty quickly!
- enitihas 6y ago
  Publications of scores doesn't happen any more, atleast for the exams similar to the gaokao, which would be the JEE. It happened only for localised exams AFAIK, where almost all applicants were local, and the pool was small enough to be printed on a newspaper. In the pre internet era, it might have been necessary though, since it wouldn't have been possible to mail all scores and expect perfect delivery in the rural parts of the country. But the internet has ensured almost all test results are online now and not published openly.

markus_zhang 6y ago

It's once a year and in general I'd say they are tougher than SAT. Here is what I know back then as a student who took GaoKao in the 90s: 1. GaoKao also has provincial variants. For example, back in the year when I took GaoKao, my city used a form called "3+1", which means 3 primary (Chinese, Math and English) plus 1 auxiliary. You can choose the auxiliary at the end of 11th grade, and the choices are Politics, History, Biology, Physics, Chemistry, etc. Other provinces used different forms but the majority were and still are on "3+2", so instead of one auxiliary they have to prepare for two. From what I recalled, a few years after some provinces switched to 3+X (X depends on your choice). You still only get 1 exam for the X though. 2. Different universities have different entry scores for different provinces. For example, I got a score of 420/600 I think? The university I went to actually charged different entry scores for different provinces. It makes sense in one way, as different provinces have different forms of GaoKao, but overall it's very unfair to students from less developed areas. I won't expand the reasoning from here but it has been a huge debate since decades ago.