5 ms·

So could a tribe welcome every single person who asks to become a tribesman? Does the government just accept whatever the tribe says? Would the government the

by tux1968 6y ago

So could a tribe welcome every single person who asks to become a tribesman? Does the government just accept whatever the tribe says? Would the government then be required to apply all the same rules and exclusions of law for such new members of the tribe?

monocasa 6y ago
Does the government just accept that Israel or Germany get to decide who are Israeli and German citizens? Tribes are legally foreign nations with a very, very close treaty relationship.
- tux1968 6y ago
  So the answer is yes? This seems like a potential business opportunity for any tribe that was so inclined. They could bestow favourable tax status on anyone who wanted to go down that path.
  - mason55 6y ago
    There are limits. Allergan tried some shenanigans with a drug patent[1]. Re: taxes, the US government will make you pay all your taxes. If you pay taxes to a foreign govt then you can get a waiver for what you paid but if the tribe gives you a good deal the US govt will still demand the rest. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/26/us/politics/allergan-eye-drops-indian-tribe.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/26/us/politics/allergan-eye-...
    - tux1968 6y ago
      > Re: taxes, the US government will make you pay all your taxes. If you pay taxes to a foreign govt then you can get a waiver for what you paid but if the tribe gives you a good deal the US govt will still demand the rest. That's the rule for US citizens. You would no longer be a US citizen. Presumably the rules would be exactly the same as they are for current tribe members.
      - mason55 6y ago
        Assuming you are planning to work in the US your income will still be taxed. And based on the rules from the Eduardo Saverin case you won't be able to escape taxes on what you earned before you left. So it doesn't really work.
        tux1968 6y ago
        > So it doesn't really work Yeah, you're right. In Canada, "status indians" get a tax exempt card to avoid sales tax at least. I didn't realize that in the US all American Natives are actually considered US citizens and are taxed federally just like everyone else. Only the tribe itself is tax exempt. That is according to: https://www.thebalance.com/do-native-americans-pay-taxes-4174095 https://www.thebalance.com/do-native-americans-pay-taxes-417...
      - swebs 6y ago
        >You would no longer be a US citizen You would also still have US citizenship. You don't lose that unless you formally renounce it.
      - ars 6y ago
        A tribe member is still a US citizen. They just aren't State citizens (residents).
    - refurb 6y ago
      The Allergan example is interesting, super ballsy and got struck down. It had to do with patent challenges through inter partie reviews (IPR) Basically Allergan transferred the patents to the tribe and said “they are sovereign and thus can’t be challenged through IPR”.
- kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
  Nations with no control over their mineral rights. Will they be able to demand a cut from the oil pumped off their land?
  - protomyth 6y ago
    Uhm, well yes they do. Check out Three Affiliated for a tribe whose people made quite a bit of cash from fracking.
  - refurb 6y ago
    Depends on the treaty. Reservations vary from quite well off (I personally knew a guy who basically had a few hundred thousand in trust from his band when he turned 18 - money from resource extraction on tribal territory) to reservations that resemble shanty towns in developing countries. Can’t lump them all together.
- gowld 6y ago
  "Falsehoods programmers believe about maps. #1 It is possible to create one consistent and complete world map" Law and geopolitics is not code. Treaties only have the meaning that signatories read into it. > Does the government just accept that Israel or Germany get to decide who are Israeli and German citizens? Certainly not! Israel has its uncertain relationship with the occuptied terrotories / Palestein. Germany had the East/West occuptation. China has its disputes regarding Taiwan and Hong Kong.
  - monocasa 6y ago
    Can you give an example of a country recognizing some but not all citizenship decisions of another country? Like I think the US would respect a Taiwanese citizen presenting a PRC passport for instance. The PRC considers all RoC citizens to be PRC citizens and will fill out the relevant documentation for them.
- sjy 6y ago
  They are “domestic dependent nations,” which are more like states than foreign nations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribal_sovereignty_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribal_sovereignty_in_the_Unit...

monocasa 6y ago

Does the government just accept that Israel or Germany get to decide who are Israeli and German citizens? Tribes are legally foreign nations with a very, very close treaty relationship.

tux1968 6y ago
So the answer is yes? This seems like a potential business opportunity for any tribe that was so inclined. They could bestow favourable tax status on anyone who wanted to go down that path.
- mason55 6y ago
  There are limits. Allergan tried some shenanigans with a drug patent[1]. Re: taxes, the US government will make you pay all your taxes. If you pay taxes to a foreign govt then you can get a waiver for what you paid but if the tribe gives you a good deal the US govt will still demand the rest. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/26/us/politics/allergan-eye-drops-indian-tribe.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/26/us/politics/allergan-eye-...
  - tux1968 6y ago
    > Re: taxes, the US government will make you pay all your taxes. If you pay taxes to a foreign govt then you can get a waiver for what you paid but if the tribe gives you a good deal the US govt will still demand the rest. That's the rule for US citizens. You would no longer be a US citizen. Presumably the rules would be exactly the same as they are for current tribe members.
    - mason55 6y ago
      Assuming you are planning to work in the US your income will still be taxed. And based on the rules from the Eduardo Saverin case you won't be able to escape taxes on what you earned before you left. So it doesn't really work.
      - tux1968 6y ago
        > So it doesn't really work Yeah, you're right. In Canada, "status indians" get a tax exempt card to avoid sales tax at least. I didn't realize that in the US all American Natives are actually considered US citizens and are taxed federally just like everyone else. Only the tribe itself is tax exempt. That is according to: https://www.thebalance.com/do-native-americans-pay-taxes-4174095 https://www.thebalance.com/do-native-americans-pay-taxes-417...
    - swebs 6y ago
      >You would no longer be a US citizen You would also still have US citizenship. You don't lose that unless you formally renounce it.
    - ars 6y ago
      A tribe member is still a US citizen. They just aren't State citizens (residents).
  - refurb 6y ago
    The Allergan example is interesting, super ballsy and got struck down. It had to do with patent challenges through inter partie reviews (IPR) Basically Allergan transferred the patents to the tribe and said “they are sovereign and thus can’t be challenged through IPR”.
kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
Nations with no control over their mineral rights. Will they be able to demand a cut from the oil pumped off their land?
- protomyth 6y ago
  Uhm, well yes they do. Check out Three Affiliated for a tribe whose people made quite a bit of cash from fracking.
- refurb 6y ago
  Depends on the treaty. Reservations vary from quite well off (I personally knew a guy who basically had a few hundred thousand in trust from his band when he turned 18 - money from resource extraction on tribal territory) to reservations that resemble shanty towns in developing countries. Can’t lump them all together.
gowld 6y ago
"Falsehoods programmers believe about maps. #1 It is possible to create one consistent and complete world map" Law and geopolitics is not code. Treaties only have the meaning that signatories read into it. > Does the government just accept that Israel or Germany get to decide who are Israeli and German citizens? Certainly not! Israel has its uncertain relationship with the occuptied terrotories / Palestein. Germany had the East/West occuptation. China has its disputes regarding Taiwan and Hong Kong.
- monocasa 6y ago
  Can you give an example of a country recognizing some but not all citizenship decisions of another country? Like I think the US would respect a Taiwanese citizen presenting a PRC passport for instance. The PRC considers all RoC citizens to be PRC citizens and will fill out the relevant documentation for them.
sjy 6y ago
They are “domestic dependent nations,” which are more like states than foreign nations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribal_sovereignty_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribal_sovereignty_in_the_Unit...