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As someone who works at the intersection of technology and journalism, it hurts to see how many misunderstandings there are in these comments and elsewhere. The

by avivo 6y ago

As someone who works at the intersection of technology and journalism, it hurts to see how many misunderstandings there are in these comments and elsewhere. The tech world (and HN in particular) deeply needs a solid explainer on how journalism works. So many misunderstandings! (Of course, many/most journalists also need an explainer about the tech world. And that is not to say that some of the more nuanced critiques on journalism or its implementation are not on point — as many journalists would agree! e.g. Jessica Lessin... and Taylor Lorenz https://twitter.com/Jessicalessin/status/1278332719974449152 https://twitter.com/Jessicalessin/status/1278332719974449152)

atdrummond 6y ago
I’m willing to learn where I may be wrong. What specifically do you see that strikes you as off-base?
maverick2007 6y ago
Tell us more! I'd be interested in reading that explainer on journalism if you have a good one to link to.
- spikels 6y ago
  The first thing you need to understand is journalism is a business...
dvtrn 6y ago
A little over a month ago someone asked what could be done to help with the spread of mis/disinformation present in media outlets and content providers. I suggested that more deliberate media literacy studies as an educational tool could possibly help. Your comment here reminded me of that, and I think it's just as relevant for this issue as it is other discussions reflecting on our relationship with media and journalism. The comment spawned quite a discussion at the time, if anyone is interested: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23323009 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23323009
dash2 6y ago
I would definitely like to see such an explainer, if you want to write it.
lliamander 6y ago
> As someone who works at the intersection of technology and journalism, it hurts to see how many misunderstandings there are in these comments and elsewhere. The tech world (and HN in particular) deeply needs a solid explainer on how journalism works. So many misunderstandings! Are there one or two insights you could share that would make this article seem less bad than many people here perceive it to be? > And that is not to say that some of the more nuanced critiques on journalism or its implementation are not on point — as many journalists would agree! e.g. Jessica Lessin... and Taylor Lorenz The criticism isn't limited purely to monetary considerations. There are prestige and partisan political issues at stake here as well. The author touches on the political lens by bringing up the red/blue/grey tribe distinction. As for the prestige, it's worth noting how many prominent figures signed that petition. Some of the public comments of these individuals give me the impression that they trust SSC more than the NYT. My perception (in my own bubble at least) is that even if NYT's subscription revenue is doing OK, the NYT's position as the "paper of record" is in jeopardy.
- wutbrodo 6y ago
  > these individuals give me the impression that they trust SSC more than the NYT Anyone who's read both and trust the NYT more has severe reading comprehension issues... Note that "trust" here doesn't mean "their conclusion is definitely correct". It means trusting what's on the surface of the article: that descriptions of linked-to references aren't completely fabricated or misrepresentative, that some baseline level of honest reading of sources has been attempted, etc. This isn't quite the apples-to-apples criticism that it appears: NYT has tons of people trying to cover a big chunk of all the events of note happening, and has no way of hiring at scale that narrowly selects for particularly intellectually honest or intelligent employees. Scott is a single person who happens to be really intelligent and quite intellectually honest, and he posts at the cadence he prefers about topics that he thinks he has something valuable to say about. If he had to scale his posting to the level of the NYT's, it's probably get more untrustworthy too.
  - lliamander 6y ago
    > Note that "trust" here doesn't mean "their conclusion is definitely correct" Totally agree. > This isn't quite the apples-to-apples criticism that it appears Fair, but I have have two responses to that. The first is that the ability to discover and access high quality writers (not just Scott) directly means that the NYT brand has less value. The second is that people increasingly feel that NYT has an agenda (not merely a bias) that colors the quality of their reporting.
mellosouls 6y ago
Journalists needs to regain trust and credibility by writing with integrity and impartiality and not through a biased, cliquey, activist mindset before worrying about issuing "explainers". Do the right thing; the explainers won't be necessary.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

by avivo 6y ago

atdrummond 6y ago

I’m willing to learn where I may be wrong. What specifically do you see that strikes you as off-base?

maverick2007 6y ago

Tell us more! I'd be interested in reading that explainer on journalism if you have a good one to link to.

spikels 6y ago
The first thing you need to understand is journalism is a business...

dvtrn 6y ago

A little over a month ago someone asked what could be done to help with the spread of mis/disinformation present in media outlets and content providers. I suggested that more deliberate media literacy studies as an educational tool could possibly help. Your comment here reminded me of that, and I think it's just as relevant for this issue as it is other discussions reflecting on our relationship with media and journalism. The comment spawned quite a discussion at the time, if anyone is interested: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23323009 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23323009

dash2 6y ago

I would definitely like to see such an explainer, if you want to write it.

lliamander 6y ago

> As someone who works at the intersection of technology and journalism, it hurts to see how many misunderstandings there are in these comments and elsewhere. The tech world (and HN in particular) deeply needs a solid explainer on how journalism works. So many misunderstandings! Are there one or two insights you could share that would make this article seem less bad than many people here perceive it to be? > And that is not to say that some of the more nuanced critiques on journalism or its implementation are not on point — as many journalists would agree! e.g. Jessica Lessin... and Taylor Lorenz The criticism isn't limited purely to monetary considerations. There are prestige and partisan political issues at stake here as well. The author touches on the political lens by bringing up the red/blue/grey tribe distinction. As for the prestige, it's worth noting how many prominent figures signed that petition. Some of the public comments of these individuals give me the impression that they trust SSC more than the NYT. My perception (in my own bubble at least) is that even if NYT's subscription revenue is doing OK, the NYT's position as the "paper of record" is in jeopardy.

wutbrodo 6y ago
> these individuals give me the impression that they trust SSC more than the NYT Anyone who's read both and trust the NYT more has severe reading comprehension issues... Note that "trust" here doesn't mean "their conclusion is definitely correct". It means trusting what's on the surface of the article: that descriptions of linked-to references aren't completely fabricated or misrepresentative, that some baseline level of honest reading of sources has been attempted, etc. This isn't quite the apples-to-apples criticism that it appears: NYT has tons of people trying to cover a big chunk of all the events of note happening, and has no way of hiring at scale that narrowly selects for particularly intellectually honest or intelligent employees. Scott is a single person who happens to be really intelligent and quite intellectually honest, and he posts at the cadence he prefers about topics that he thinks he has something valuable to say about. If he had to scale his posting to the level of the NYT's, it's probably get more untrustworthy too.
- lliamander 6y ago
  > Note that "trust" here doesn't mean "their conclusion is definitely correct" Totally agree. > This isn't quite the apples-to-apples criticism that it appears Fair, but I have have two responses to that. The first is that the ability to discover and access high quality writers (not just Scott) directly means that the NYT brand has less value. The second is that people increasingly feel that NYT has an agenda (not merely a bias) that colors the quality of their reporting.

mellosouls 6y ago

Journalists needs to regain trust and credibility by writing with integrity and impartiality and not through a biased, cliquey, activist mindset before worrying about issuing "explainers". Do the right thing; the explainers won't be necessary.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]