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And Motorolla employees are asking their employer to stop selling radios to the police? And Glock employees to stop selling guns to the police? Ford is no mor

by mikece 6y ago

And Motorolla employees are asking their employer to stop selling radios to the police? And Glock employees to stop selling guns to the police? Ford is no more liable for actions of bad cops than Volkswagen, BMW, or Mercedes were for the actions of the nazis.

Spivak 6y ago
It's not that they're liable. It's that the employees are uncomfortable doing business with people who they see will use their products to do harm. It's praiseworthy but not obligatory. And it's also the only real power that Ford employees have. If you go into a gun shop and the person working the counter believes you're going to use it to kill someone they're well within their right to simply not do business with you. The power to not associate or sell one's goods or labor is pretty much the only tangible power your average citizen has. Might as well let them wield it sometimes.
- nightowl_games 6y ago
  The citizen only has the power to resign. The subtext here is a "threat to resignation".
  - ISL 6y ago
    The citizen also has the right to speak, to vote, and much, much more.
    - aspaceman 6y ago
      And I imagine they’re already doing that
- core-questions 6y ago
  > It's that the employees are uncomfortable doing business with people who they see will use their products to do harm. This is a ridiculous attitude. The vast, vast majority of police actions keep the populace in general from greater harm. This is just virtue signalling at scale, and I am glad the CEO is ignoring this. > If you go into a gun shop and the person working the counter believes you're going to use it to kill someone they're well within their right to simply not do business with you. This is an asinine comparison, and I think you know that.
sio8ohPi 6y ago
Perhaps a bad analogy given that Volkswagen, BMW, and Daimler-Benz all made use of slave labor provided by the Nazis.
- jsiepkes 6y ago
  For completeness: So did the German factory of Ford even though they weren't required by the Nazi's to do so.
  - thedudeabides5 6y ago
    Didn't Ford build like, a lot of tanks and airplane stuff for WWII for the USA? Even if the old man was a facist, think we can all be grateful for all the machines they built to help the Allies win the war. http://michiganhistory.leadr.msu.edu/wwii-and-ford-motor-company/ http://michiganhistory.leadr.msu.edu/wwii-and-ford-motor-com... Dunno, maybe the evidence is more mixed https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/daily/nov98/nazicars30.htm https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/daily/nov98/n... By the end of the war, Ford had built 86,865 complete aircraft, 57,851 airplane engines, 4,291 military gliders, and thousands of engine superchargers and generators. In addition to aircraft, Ford plants built 277,896 of the versatile vehicles (tanks, armored cars, and jeeps).
    - recursivecaveat 6y ago
      It sounds like Ford's assets were essentially nationalized by the Germans during that period, which makes sense. Seems very foolish to let an American company directly control factories in Nazi Germany. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/ford-motor-company-nbsp-and-the-third-reich https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/ford-motor-company-nbsp...
- outworlder 6y ago
  > Volkswagen Which is literally Hitler's creation (the name means People's car) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen#1932%E2%80%931938:_People's_Car_Nazi_project https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen#1932%E2%80%931938:_...
jsiepkes 6y ago
> Ford is no more liable for actions of bad cops than Volkswagen, BMW, or Mercedes were for the actions of the nazis. Interesting piece of history: "Ironically" Ford is actually sort of liable for the actions of the Nazi's, well Henry Ford that is. Henry Ford was a BIG anti semite. Hitler himself has said Ford's anti semitism was an inspiration to him, Ford is also mentioned favourably a couple of times in Hitlers Mein Kampf, was awarded a high Nazi medal for his virtue in anti semtism and apparently Hitler for a time had a photo on his desk of Ford...
GhostVII 6y ago
I disagree. They create cars designed to help police do their jobs, police aren't just buying the same cars available to the general public. So if the cars they create for the police are used to oppress people, I think they do have some liability. To be clear I don't think that they should stop selling cars to the police, pretty much everyone agrees the police are necessary, so I think it is also necessary to have companies sell cars to them. But if you work with an oppressive organization to create tools to help them do their jobs, you are partially responsible for what they do with those tools.
- azinman2 6y ago
  “So if the cars they create for the police are used to oppress people” It’s not the cars that are the problem — there’s no modification that somehow senses POC and then runs over them, for example. Do you also stop selling them clothes because the uniforms are designed for cops as well? This isn’t something where you can say this is universally bad. They’re a fundamental part of society - there to enforce laws. And if you agree that police are necessary, then they need to get around somehow. I can appreciate how these employees feel like this is a way they can create change. They work for Ford, after all. But it’s a classic “when you have a hammer” situation. The problem is way more complex and nuanced. This only works against you because it makes your arguments look silly to those you want to convince to care.
  - GhostVII 6y ago
    I agree that police are fundamental in the US so it is ok to make cars for them, I made the exact same argument you did. What I disagree with is the argument that you are not responsible for how the tools you produce are used. If you are creating a legitimate product and making it available to everyone, I don't think you should be generally held responsible for how it is used (ex. guns, civilian vehicles). But that is not what Ford is doing - they are working with law enforcement to create vehicles suited to their needs, they are specifically working to make it easier for police to do their jobs. I think that gives them some responsibility, in the same way that I would feel like a company making military vehicles for Saudi Arabia has some responsibility for how they are used.

by mikece 6y ago

Spivak 6y ago

It's not that they're liable. It's that the employees are uncomfortable doing business with people who they see will use their products to do harm. It's praiseworthy but not obligatory. And it's also the only real power that Ford employees have. If you go into a gun shop and the person working the counter believes you're going to use it to kill someone they're well within their right to simply not do business with you. The power to not associate or sell one's goods or labor is pretty much the only tangible power your average citizen has. Might as well let them wield it sometimes.

nightowl_games 6y ago
The citizen only has the power to resign. The subtext here is a "threat to resignation".
- ISL 6y ago
  The citizen also has the right to speak, to vote, and much, much more.
  - aspaceman 6y ago
    And I imagine they’re already doing that
core-questions 6y ago
> It's that the employees are uncomfortable doing business with people who they see will use their products to do harm. This is a ridiculous attitude. The vast, vast majority of police actions keep the populace in general from greater harm. This is just virtue signalling at scale, and I am glad the CEO is ignoring this. > If you go into a gun shop and the person working the counter believes you're going to use it to kill someone they're well within their right to simply not do business with you. This is an asinine comparison, and I think you know that.

sio8ohPi 6y ago

Perhaps a bad analogy given that Volkswagen, BMW, and Daimler-Benz all made use of slave labor provided by the Nazis.

jsiepkes 6y ago
For completeness: So did the German factory of Ford even though they weren't required by the Nazi's to do so.
- thedudeabides5 6y ago
  Didn't Ford build like, a lot of tanks and airplane stuff for WWII for the USA? Even if the old man was a facist, think we can all be grateful for all the machines they built to help the Allies win the war. http://michiganhistory.leadr.msu.edu/wwii-and-ford-motor-company/ http://michiganhistory.leadr.msu.edu/wwii-and-ford-motor-com... Dunno, maybe the evidence is more mixed https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/daily/nov98/nazicars30.htm https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/daily/nov98/n... By the end of the war, Ford had built 86,865 complete aircraft, 57,851 airplane engines, 4,291 military gliders, and thousands of engine superchargers and generators. In addition to aircraft, Ford plants built 277,896 of the versatile vehicles (tanks, armored cars, and jeeps).
  - recursivecaveat 6y ago
    It sounds like Ford's assets were essentially nationalized by the Germans during that period, which makes sense. Seems very foolish to let an American company directly control factories in Nazi Germany. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/ford-motor-company-nbsp-and-the-third-reich https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/ford-motor-company-nbsp...
outworlder 6y ago
> Volkswagen Which is literally Hitler's creation (the name means People's car) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen#1932%E2%80%931938:_People's_Car_Nazi_project https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen#1932%E2%80%931938:_...

jsiepkes 6y ago

> Ford is no more liable for actions of bad cops than Volkswagen, BMW, or Mercedes were for the actions of the nazis. Interesting piece of history: "Ironically" Ford is actually sort of liable for the actions of the Nazi's, well Henry Ford that is. Henry Ford was a BIG anti semite. Hitler himself has said Ford's anti semitism was an inspiration to him, Ford is also mentioned favourably a couple of times in Hitlers Mein Kampf, was awarded a high Nazi medal for his virtue in anti semtism and apparently Hitler for a time had a photo on his desk of Ford...

GhostVII 6y ago

I disagree. They create cars designed to help police do their jobs, police aren't just buying the same cars available to the general public. So if the cars they create for the police are used to oppress people, I think they do have some liability. To be clear I don't think that they should stop selling cars to the police, pretty much everyone agrees the police are necessary, so I think it is also necessary to have companies sell cars to them. But if you work with an oppressive organization to create tools to help them do their jobs, you are partially responsible for what they do with those tools.

azinman2 6y ago
“So if the cars they create for the police are used to oppress people” It’s not the cars that are the problem — there’s no modification that somehow senses POC and then runs over them, for example. Do you also stop selling them clothes because the uniforms are designed for cops as well? This isn’t something where you can say this is universally bad. They’re a fundamental part of society - there to enforce laws. And if you agree that police are necessary, then they need to get around somehow. I can appreciate how these employees feel like this is a way they can create change. They work for Ford, after all. But it’s a classic “when you have a hammer” situation. The problem is way more complex and nuanced. This only works against you because it makes your arguments look silly to those you want to convince to care.
- GhostVII 6y ago
  I agree that police are fundamental in the US so it is ok to make cars for them, I made the exact same argument you did. What I disagree with is the argument that you are not responsible for how the tools you produce are used. If you are creating a legitimate product and making it available to everyone, I don't think you should be generally held responsible for how it is used (ex. guns, civilian vehicles). But that is not what Ford is doing - they are working with law enforcement to create vehicles suited to their needs, they are specifically working to make it easier for police to do their jobs. I think that gives them some responsibility, in the same way that I would feel like a company making military vehicles for Saudi Arabia has some responsibility for how they are used.