7 ms·

Ford employees ask the company to stop making police cars

45 points by Alupis 6y ago

mikece 6y ago
And Motorolla employees are asking their employer to stop selling radios to the police? And Glock employees to stop selling guns to the police? Ford is no more liable for actions of bad cops than Volkswagen, BMW, or Mercedes were for the actions of the nazis.
- Spivak 6y ago
  It's not that they're liable. It's that the employees are uncomfortable doing business with people who they see will use their products to do harm. It's praiseworthy but not obligatory. And it's also the only real power that Ford employees have. If you go into a gun shop and the person working the counter believes you're going to use it to kill someone they're well within their right to simply not do business with you. The power to not associate or sell one's goods or labor is pretty much the only tangible power your average citizen has. Might as well let them wield it sometimes.
  - nightowl_games 6y ago
    The citizen only has the power to resign. The subtext here is a "threat to resignation".
    - ISL 6y ago
      The citizen also has the right to speak, to vote, and much, much more.
      - aspaceman 6y ago
        And I imagine they’re already doing that
  - core-questions 6y ago
    > It's that the employees are uncomfortable doing business with people who they see will use their products to do harm. This is a ridiculous attitude. The vast, vast majority of police actions keep the populace in general from greater harm. This is just virtue signalling at scale, and I am glad the CEO is ignoring this. > If you go into a gun shop and the person working the counter believes you're going to use it to kill someone they're well within their right to simply not do business with you. This is an asinine comparison, and I think you know that.
- sio8ohPi 6y ago
  Perhaps a bad analogy given that Volkswagen, BMW, and Daimler-Benz all made use of slave labor provided by the Nazis.
  - jsiepkes 6y ago
    For completeness: So did the German factory of Ford even though they weren't required by the Nazi's to do so.
    - thedudeabides5 6y ago
      Didn't Ford build like, a lot of tanks and airplane stuff for WWII for the USA? Even if the old man was a facist, think we can all be grateful for all the machines they built to help the Allies win the war. http://michiganhistory.leadr.msu.edu/wwii-and-ford-motor-company/ http://michiganhistory.leadr.msu.edu/wwii-and-ford-motor-com... Dunno, maybe the evidence is more mixed https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/daily/nov98/nazicars30.htm https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/daily/nov98/n... By the end of the war, Ford had built 86,865 complete aircraft, 57,851 airplane engines, 4,291 military gliders, and thousands of engine superchargers and generators. In addition to aircraft, Ford plants built 277,896 of the versatile vehicles (tanks, armored cars, and jeeps).
      - recursivecaveat 6y ago
        It sounds like Ford's assets were essentially nationalized by the Germans during that period, which makes sense. Seems very foolish to let an American company directly control factories in Nazi Germany. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/ford-motor-company-nbsp-and-the-third-reich https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/ford-motor-company-nbsp...
  - outworlder 6y ago
    > Volkswagen Which is literally Hitler's creation (the name means People's car) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen#1932%E2%80%931938:_People's_Car_Nazi_project https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen#1932%E2%80%931938:_...
- jsiepkes 6y ago
  > Ford is no more liable for actions of bad cops than Volkswagen, BMW, or Mercedes were for the actions of the nazis. Interesting piece of history: "Ironically" Ford is actually sort of liable for the actions of the Nazi's, well Henry Ford that is. Henry Ford was a BIG anti semite. Hitler himself has said Ford's anti semitism was an inspiration to him, Ford is also mentioned favourably a couple of times in Hitlers Mein Kampf, was awarded a high Nazi medal for his virtue in anti semtism and apparently Hitler for a time had a photo on his desk of Ford...
- GhostVII 6y ago
  I disagree. They create cars designed to help police do their jobs, police aren't just buying the same cars available to the general public. So if the cars they create for the police are used to oppress people, I think they do have some liability. To be clear I don't think that they should stop selling cars to the police, pretty much everyone agrees the police are necessary, so I think it is also necessary to have companies sell cars to them. But if you work with an oppressive organization to create tools to help them do their jobs, you are partially responsible for what they do with those tools.
  - azinman2 6y ago
    “So if the cars they create for the police are used to oppress people” It’s not the cars that are the problem — there’s no modification that somehow senses POC and then runs over them, for example. Do you also stop selling them clothes because the uniforms are designed for cops as well? This isn’t something where you can say this is universally bad. They’re a fundamental part of society - there to enforce laws. And if you agree that police are necessary, then they need to get around somehow. I can appreciate how these employees feel like this is a way they can create change. They work for Ford, after all. But it’s a classic “when you have a hammer” situation. The problem is way more complex and nuanced. This only works against you because it makes your arguments look silly to those you want to convince to care.
    - GhostVII 6y ago
      I agree that police are fundamental in the US so it is ok to make cars for them, I made the exact same argument you did. What I disagree with is the argument that you are not responsible for how the tools you produce are used. If you are creating a legitimate product and making it available to everyone, I don't think you should be generally held responsible for how it is used (ex. guns, civilian vehicles). But that is not what Ford is doing - they are working with law enforcement to create vehicles suited to their needs, they are specifically working to make it easier for police to do their jobs. I think that gives them some responsibility, in the same way that I would feel like a company making military vehicles for Saudi Arabia has some responsibility for how they are used.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
mixmastamyk 6y ago
Surely the solution is to prosecute police brutality? Not imply vehicles have anything to do with the problem.
- dfxm12 6y ago
  If you feel prosecuting police brutality doesn't work, you have to work other angles (maybe many angles at once), and while Ford employees have no power within the legal system, this is an angle where Ford employees do at least have a voice. They aren't implying vehicles have something to do with the problem.
  - brink 6y ago
    It's not a well thought out protest. Do the Ford employees expect the cops to jog to their house when someone has broken in?
    - jasonv 6y ago
      Taking a position that gets noticed feels "well thought out" to me. Individually we all can't solve it all, but if they're able to take this stand and make it uncomfortable enough for management, they've done something that may contribute to the changes they're looking for. Like, say, Amazon de-listing Washington Redskins merch. I personally love that move. Maybe, collectively, these things lead to the changes. If police departments feel pressure in many different ways, they may start allowing for leadership and changes that have a material impact in the way they operate.
    - PCI-eX16 6y ago
      If Ford stops making custom police vehicles and products, it will not prevent current police fleets from rolling nor will it prevent police from buying regular production vehicles. If that's your concern, consider it allayed.
      - Alupis 6y ago
        It's not like Police nation-wide are required to purchase Ford vehicles. It's a giant cash cow for Ford. This will only hurt Ford. Police already have vehicles... and they can source new vehicles from any other willing company... even if it was a foreign company like Toyota.
jimbob123 6y ago
This is a massive yikes, if you don't like the company you work for. Go to another company. The police aren't universally bad and hysteria like this distracts from actual issues.
- Angostura 6y ago
  Presumably you would also say this to coders who work for, I don't know ... Palantir, or companies that make software primarily (but not necessarily) used by spammers?
- blahblahblogger 6y ago
  Well this type of employee activism is happening everywhere even in tech, or especially so in tech. I work at a company in SF that's gone full ACAB ("all cops are bastards"), defund the police, you must be with us or you are not an "anti-racist", et. There's a lot of internal activist groups and what not. I worry that investors have no idea how much time and resources are spent on this, but then I consider that activist shareholders themselves have become a movement. The reality is that this type of thing is going to become more and more common and accepted.
- speedgoose 6y ago
  It's not so simple for many people. We are very privileged in IT.
- lostgame 6y ago
  >> The police aren't universally bad Millions of people in defund the police / abolish the police, and the entire African American community, along with many other marginalized communities; may consider that a very privileged perspective. The police, with the broken laws and systems in place, could very well be universally bad. I think that’s an obvious point of contention at the moment and is a long standing belief that we are reconsidering.
  - dx87 6y ago
    > the entire African American community Claiming that every single black person in America thinks that ever single police office in America is bad discredits whatever point you're trying to make. You must spend your entire life in a bubble if you truly believe that.
ogre_codes 6y ago
It's a form of protest. This is how protests work, a company doesn't do something you don't like, you boycott them. Your company/ organization does something you don't like, you raise the issue with management; sometimes you call in sick or quit. This isn't any different from police having a "Blue Flu" or any other protest. People who are members of a company/ organization that want to influence the company do it in lots of ways.
gist 6y ago
In typical fashion the press takes something that a few people are doing and makes like it's a movement or represented of most of the people. Focus on 1000 people protesting in (say) NYC vs. 18 million who aren't. Separately - Why stop here why not ostracize anybody who works for any company that has ever had any relationship past or present to anything bad in the world. Point is where is the line drawn? This is all quite ridiculous.
ykevinator 6y ago
Police (who work for us and should be viewed as our employees) have a lot of damage control to do. Step 1 is admit you have a problem. We haven't gotten past step 1 yet. I'm sure there are fox news comments in this thread that will back this up.
hirundo 6y ago
How does this discomfit the police in any way? When they go to add to their fleet and Ford says no thanks, they just buy another brand. Ford doesn't offer features or prices such that this would be a problem. And meanwhile, what does this do to Ford sales outside of law enforcement, as in the red states ... where all of those pickup trucks are sold, and where police are far more popular? So if they get what they ask they get a smaller more fragile employer with a decreasing workforce and fewer funds for raises, in return for a symbolic gesture.
- nitrogen 6y ago
  Ford doesn't offer features or prices such that this would be a problem. I was under the impression that police variants of cars are heavily modified for structural and performance reasons, at least in the US. e.g. someone once gave me a ride in an auctioned used Interceptor and demonstrated the switchable performance and traction modes that were unique to that version.
  - hirundo 6y ago
    There are no barriers to their competitors offering those same features. And even if every domestic car maker joins the reverse boycott, foreign makers would be delighted to pick up the business, and the police may well get superior cars.
SecurityMinded 6y ago
Time to buy GM and Chrysler stocks... Stupidity knows no bounds obviously.
RickJWagner 6y ago
The whole protest-the-cops thing is baffling to me. Prosecute bad cops, sure. Throw the book at them. Their time in prison is sure to be horrible. But run-of-the-mill, protecting-your-neighborhood cops? They are the good guys and gals. Without question. CHOP and Atlanta have shown us how self-policing pans out.
- GaryNumanVevo 6y ago
  The entire point of the protest is to express the frustration with lack of prosecution of “bad police”. Countless times, bad police get a slap on the wrist and put back on the force. It’s a system which closes rank whenever any misdeed or crime is committed within the force.
  - RickJWagner 6y ago
    So cancel police forces? It's proven to not work. CHOP had murders just a few days later. Everybody agrees bad cops should be prosecuted. A wild over-reaction that opposes the huge majority of good cops is a wrong move.
mu_sub_naught 6y ago
Didn't a Swedish police detachment buy a fleet of Tesla squad cars within the past 720 days?

45 points by Alupis 6y ago

And Motorolla employees are asking their employer to stop selling radios to the police? And Glock employees to stop selling guns to the police? Ford is no more liable for actions of bad cops than Volkswagen, BMW, or Mercedes were for the actions of the nazis.

Spivak 6y ago
It's not that they're liable. It's that the employees are uncomfortable doing business with people who they see will use their products to do harm. It's praiseworthy but not obligatory. And it's also the only real power that Ford employees have. If you go into a gun shop and the person working the counter believes you're going to use it to kill someone they're well within their right to simply not do business with you. The power to not associate or sell one's goods or labor is pretty much the only tangible power your average citizen has. Might as well let them wield it sometimes.
- nightowl_games 6y ago
  The citizen only has the power to resign. The subtext here is a "threat to resignation".
  - ISL 6y ago
    The citizen also has the right to speak, to vote, and much, much more.
    - aspaceman 6y ago
      And I imagine they’re already doing that
- core-questions 6y ago
  > It's that the employees are uncomfortable doing business with people who they see will use their products to do harm. This is a ridiculous attitude. The vast, vast majority of police actions keep the populace in general from greater harm. This is just virtue signalling at scale, and I am glad the CEO is ignoring this. > If you go into a gun shop and the person working the counter believes you're going to use it to kill someone they're well within their right to simply not do business with you. This is an asinine comparison, and I think you know that.
sio8ohPi 6y ago
Perhaps a bad analogy given that Volkswagen, BMW, and Daimler-Benz all made use of slave labor provided by the Nazis.
- jsiepkes 6y ago
  For completeness: So did the German factory of Ford even though they weren't required by the Nazi's to do so.
  - thedudeabides5 6y ago
    Didn't Ford build like, a lot of tanks and airplane stuff for WWII for the USA? Even if the old man was a facist, think we can all be grateful for all the machines they built to help the Allies win the war. http://michiganhistory.leadr.msu.edu/wwii-and-ford-motor-company/ http://michiganhistory.leadr.msu.edu/wwii-and-ford-motor-com... Dunno, maybe the evidence is more mixed https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/daily/nov98/nazicars30.htm https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/daily/nov98/n... By the end of the war, Ford had built 86,865 complete aircraft, 57,851 airplane engines, 4,291 military gliders, and thousands of engine superchargers and generators. In addition to aircraft, Ford plants built 277,896 of the versatile vehicles (tanks, armored cars, and jeeps).
    - recursivecaveat 6y ago
      It sounds like Ford's assets were essentially nationalized by the Germans during that period, which makes sense. Seems very foolish to let an American company directly control factories in Nazi Germany. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/ford-motor-company-nbsp-and-the-third-reich https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/ford-motor-company-nbsp...
- outworlder 6y ago
  > Volkswagen Which is literally Hitler's creation (the name means People's car) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen#1932%E2%80%931938:_People's_Car_Nazi_project https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen#1932%E2%80%931938:_...
jsiepkes 6y ago
> Ford is no more liable for actions of bad cops than Volkswagen, BMW, or Mercedes were for the actions of the nazis. Interesting piece of history: "Ironically" Ford is actually sort of liable for the actions of the Nazi's, well Henry Ford that is. Henry Ford was a BIG anti semite. Hitler himself has said Ford's anti semitism was an inspiration to him, Ford is also mentioned favourably a couple of times in Hitlers Mein Kampf, was awarded a high Nazi medal for his virtue in anti semtism and apparently Hitler for a time had a photo on his desk of Ford...
GhostVII 6y ago
I disagree. They create cars designed to help police do their jobs, police aren't just buying the same cars available to the general public. So if the cars they create for the police are used to oppress people, I think they do have some liability. To be clear I don't think that they should stop selling cars to the police, pretty much everyone agrees the police are necessary, so I think it is also necessary to have companies sell cars to them. But if you work with an oppressive organization to create tools to help them do their jobs, you are partially responsible for what they do with those tools.
- azinman2 6y ago
  “So if the cars they create for the police are used to oppress people” It’s not the cars that are the problem — there’s no modification that somehow senses POC and then runs over them, for example. Do you also stop selling them clothes because the uniforms are designed for cops as well? This isn’t something where you can say this is universally bad. They’re a fundamental part of society - there to enforce laws. And if you agree that police are necessary, then they need to get around somehow. I can appreciate how these employees feel like this is a way they can create change. They work for Ford, after all. But it’s a classic “when you have a hammer” situation. The problem is way more complex and nuanced. This only works against you because it makes your arguments look silly to those you want to convince to care.
  - GhostVII 6y ago
    I agree that police are fundamental in the US so it is ok to make cars for them, I made the exact same argument you did. What I disagree with is the argument that you are not responsible for how the tools you produce are used. If you are creating a legitimate product and making it available to everyone, I don't think you should be generally held responsible for how it is used (ex. guns, civilian vehicles). But that is not what Ford is doing - they are working with law enforcement to create vehicles suited to their needs, they are specifically working to make it easier for police to do their jobs. I think that gives them some responsibility, in the same way that I would feel like a company making military vehicles for Saudi Arabia has some responsibility for how they are used.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

mixmastamyk 6y ago

Surely the solution is to prosecute police brutality? Not imply vehicles have anything to do with the problem.

dfxm12 6y ago
If you feel prosecuting police brutality doesn't work, you have to work other angles (maybe many angles at once), and while Ford employees have no power within the legal system, this is an angle where Ford employees do at least have a voice. They aren't implying vehicles have something to do with the problem.
- brink 6y ago
  It's not a well thought out protest. Do the Ford employees expect the cops to jog to their house when someone has broken in?
  - jasonv 6y ago
    Taking a position that gets noticed feels "well thought out" to me. Individually we all can't solve it all, but if they're able to take this stand and make it uncomfortable enough for management, they've done something that may contribute to the changes they're looking for. Like, say, Amazon de-listing Washington Redskins merch. I personally love that move. Maybe, collectively, these things lead to the changes. If police departments feel pressure in many different ways, they may start allowing for leadership and changes that have a material impact in the way they operate.
  - PCI-eX16 6y ago
    If Ford stops making custom police vehicles and products, it will not prevent current police fleets from rolling nor will it prevent police from buying regular production vehicles. If that's your concern, consider it allayed.
    - Alupis 6y ago
      It's not like Police nation-wide are required to purchase Ford vehicles. It's a giant cash cow for Ford. This will only hurt Ford. Police already have vehicles... and they can source new vehicles from any other willing company... even if it was a foreign company like Toyota.

jimbob123 6y ago

This is a massive yikes, if you don't like the company you work for. Go to another company. The police aren't universally bad and hysteria like this distracts from actual issues.

Angostura 6y ago
Presumably you would also say this to coders who work for, I don't know ... Palantir, or companies that make software primarily (but not necessarily) used by spammers?
blahblahblogger 6y ago
Well this type of employee activism is happening everywhere even in tech, or especially so in tech. I work at a company in SF that's gone full ACAB ("all cops are bastards"), defund the police, you must be with us or you are not an "anti-racist", et. There's a lot of internal activist groups and what not. I worry that investors have no idea how much time and resources are spent on this, but then I consider that activist shareholders themselves have become a movement. The reality is that this type of thing is going to become more and more common and accepted.
speedgoose 6y ago
It's not so simple for many people. We are very privileged in IT.
lostgame 6y ago
>> The police aren't universally bad Millions of people in defund the police / abolish the police, and the entire African American community, along with many other marginalized communities; may consider that a very privileged perspective. The police, with the broken laws and systems in place, could very well be universally bad. I think that’s an obvious point of contention at the moment and is a long standing belief that we are reconsidering.
- dx87 6y ago
  > the entire African American community Claiming that every single black person in America thinks that ever single police office in America is bad discredits whatever point you're trying to make. You must spend your entire life in a bubble if you truly believe that.

ogre_codes 6y ago

It's a form of protest. This is how protests work, a company doesn't do something you don't like, you boycott them. Your company/ organization does something you don't like, you raise the issue with management; sometimes you call in sick or quit. This isn't any different from police having a "Blue Flu" or any other protest. People who are members of a company/ organization that want to influence the company do it in lots of ways.

gist 6y ago

In typical fashion the press takes something that a few people are doing and makes like it's a movement or represented of most of the people. Focus on 1000 people protesting in (say) NYC vs. 18 million who aren't. Separately - Why stop here why not ostracize anybody who works for any company that has ever had any relationship past or present to anything bad in the world. Point is where is the line drawn? This is all quite ridiculous.

ykevinator 6y ago

Police (who work for us and should be viewed as our employees) have a lot of damage control to do. Step 1 is admit you have a problem. We haven't gotten past step 1 yet. I'm sure there are fox news comments in this thread that will back this up.

hirundo 6y ago

How does this discomfit the police in any way? When they go to add to their fleet and Ford says no thanks, they just buy another brand. Ford doesn't offer features or prices such that this would be a problem. And meanwhile, what does this do to Ford sales outside of law enforcement, as in the red states ... where all of those pickup trucks are sold, and where police are far more popular? So if they get what they ask they get a smaller more fragile employer with a decreasing workforce and fewer funds for raises, in return for a symbolic gesture.

nitrogen 6y ago
Ford doesn't offer features or prices such that this would be a problem. I was under the impression that police variants of cars are heavily modified for structural and performance reasons, at least in the US. e.g. someone once gave me a ride in an auctioned used Interceptor and demonstrated the switchable performance and traction modes that were unique to that version.
- hirundo 6y ago
  There are no barriers to their competitors offering those same features. And even if every domestic car maker joins the reverse boycott, foreign makers would be delighted to pick up the business, and the police may well get superior cars.

SecurityMinded 6y ago

Time to buy GM and Chrysler stocks... Stupidity knows no bounds obviously.

RickJWagner 6y ago

The whole protest-the-cops thing is baffling to me. Prosecute bad cops, sure. Throw the book at them. Their time in prison is sure to be horrible. But run-of-the-mill, protecting-your-neighborhood cops? They are the good guys and gals. Without question. CHOP and Atlanta have shown us how self-policing pans out.

GaryNumanVevo 6y ago
The entire point of the protest is to express the frustration with lack of prosecution of “bad police”. Countless times, bad police get a slap on the wrist and put back on the force. It’s a system which closes rank whenever any misdeed or crime is committed within the force.
- RickJWagner 6y ago
  So cancel police forces? It's proven to not work. CHOP had murders just a few days later. Everybody agrees bad cops should be prosecuted. A wild over-reaction that opposes the huge majority of good cops is a wrong move.

mu_sub_naught 6y ago

Didn't a Swedish police detachment buy a fleet of Tesla squad cars within the past 720 days?