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Are we anywhere near seeing Microsoft Windows running on ARM? Seems to me that Microsoft doesn't have the same strong incentive to shift away from x86 as Apple

by chvid 6y ago

Are we anywhere near seeing Microsoft Windows running on ARM? Seems to me that Microsoft doesn't have the same strong incentive to shift away from x86 as Apple has.

Someone 6y ago
They’re not going all-in, but https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/uwp/porting/apps-on-arm https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/uwp/porting/apps-on...: “Originally Windows 10 (as distinguished from Windows 10 Mobile) could run only on PCs that were powered by x86 and x64 processors. Now, Windows 10 desktop can run on machines that are powered by ARM64 processors with the Fall Creators Update or newer. The power-saving nature of the ARM CPU architecture allows these PCs to have all-day battery life and support for mobile data networks. These PCs will provide great application compatibility and allow you to run your existing x86 win32 applications unmodified.”
headmelted 6y ago
I think the market is betting more on AMD than Intel serving that market though. I could have kicked myself for not buying AMD stock years ago, even joked about it with some friends at the time but couldn't afford to take the risk. The reason was (rightly or wrongly) Jim Keller returning to work on Zen. He's worked on a few different and really exciting things since, but he's at Intel now. I suspect they'll sort it out and turn things around, but running their own fabs is their biggest problem now. They aren't competitive with TSMC and they desperately need to be.
- klelatti 6y ago
  Technically Jim Keller is still at Intel as a consultant I think but not for long ... https://www.anandtech.com/show/15846/jim-keller-resigns-from-intel-effective-immediately https://www.anandtech.com/show/15846/jim-keller-resigns-from...
- ethbro 6y ago
  > The reason was (rightly or wrongly) Jim Keller So are you buying Intel stock now?
  - headmelted 6y ago
    Nope. Still can’t afford to take that risk. Also, the circumstances are much different. AMD was valued at the time as a company circling the drain - there was a lot of upside potential given the low starting point. Intel is still valued very highly currently even after it’s problems in the last few years. The thing is - I think they’d need to turn the company around entirely just to justify their current price, let alone any future returns.
pjc50 6y ago
It's been possible for a while but never really taken off. As you say, because Microsoft don't control or profit from the hardware (apart from their own Surfaces) they have no real incentive one way or the other. They did try a more locked down version of Windows, Windows RT, on ARM. It was predictably a disappointment.
- mastax 6y ago
  It's telling that even on hackernews nobody knows about the Surface Pro X.
  - pjc50 6y ago
    Microsoft's grievous inability to name things doesn't help there. At least it's not the XBox One X.
    - mercer 6y ago
      I imagine they'd be stupid enough to follow that up with something like Xbox Series X to denote a completely new console generation! It's only slightly more stupid than following up a smash hit console called a Wii with a completely new one called Wii U! (I mean, seriously, I'm a proper Nintendo fan but somehow I missed an entire console generation because of stupid naming!)
    - fomine3 6y ago
      I'm really curious why they named "Xbox Series X". It's hard to remembering whether it's latest or not for me (non English-native, Japanese).
ccurrens 6y ago
For consumers, I'm not sure. But I know as part of cutting costs, Azure decided to start running servers on ARM instead of x64: https://www.techrepublic.com/article/windows-server-on-arm-microsoft-moves-beyond-intel-in-its-azure-cloud/ https://www.techrepublic.com/article/windows-server-on-arm-m...
ethbro 6y ago
Windows could probably run on ARM tomorrow (or at least, in 6 months) if Microsoft really wanted it to. What it could probably not do is run-on-ARM with acceptable performance for every legacy app. Windows' bread and butter has always been forever-compatibility (Win API language-of-the-year aside) for long lived business apps. Apple has never, and doesn't seem to want to, competed on that front.
als0 6y ago
It already does run on ARM64 but it is only available to OEMs, meaning that you can't buy it as a consumer. And it only runs on some specific SoCs, most of which are Qualcomm ARM chips. Things are likely to change as more actual ARM64 laptops appear. Some Windows on ARM64 laptops are already available like the HP Envy X2, the Lenovo Yoga C630, and the Microsoft Surface Pro X.
Shorel 6y ago
Windows running on ARM is about as valuable as Linux running on ARM. What makes Windows valuable is the 'legacy' applications.

by chvid 6y ago

Are we anywhere near seeing Microsoft Windows running on ARM? Seems to me that Microsoft doesn't have the same strong incentive to shift away from x86 as Apple has.

Someone 6y ago

They’re not going all-in, but https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/uwp/porting/apps-on-arm https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/uwp/porting/apps-on...: “Originally Windows 10 (as distinguished from Windows 10 Mobile) could run only on PCs that were powered by x86 and x64 processors. Now, Windows 10 desktop can run on machines that are powered by ARM64 processors with the Fall Creators Update or newer. The power-saving nature of the ARM CPU architecture allows these PCs to have all-day battery life and support for mobile data networks. These PCs will provide great application compatibility and allow you to run your existing x86 win32 applications unmodified.”

headmelted 6y ago

I think the market is betting more on AMD than Intel serving that market though. I could have kicked myself for not buying AMD stock years ago, even joked about it with some friends at the time but couldn't afford to take the risk. The reason was (rightly or wrongly) Jim Keller returning to work on Zen. He's worked on a few different and really exciting things since, but he's at Intel now. I suspect they'll sort it out and turn things around, but running their own fabs is their biggest problem now. They aren't competitive with TSMC and they desperately need to be.

klelatti 6y ago
Technically Jim Keller is still at Intel as a consultant I think but not for long ... https://www.anandtech.com/show/15846/jim-keller-resigns-from-intel-effective-immediately https://www.anandtech.com/show/15846/jim-keller-resigns-from...
ethbro 6y ago
> The reason was (rightly or wrongly) Jim Keller So are you buying Intel stock now?
- headmelted 6y ago
  Nope. Still can’t afford to take that risk. Also, the circumstances are much different. AMD was valued at the time as a company circling the drain - there was a lot of upside potential given the low starting point. Intel is still valued very highly currently even after it’s problems in the last few years. The thing is - I think they’d need to turn the company around entirely just to justify their current price, let alone any future returns.

pjc50 6y ago

It's been possible for a while but never really taken off. As you say, because Microsoft don't control or profit from the hardware (apart from their own Surfaces) they have no real incentive one way or the other. They did try a more locked down version of Windows, Windows RT, on ARM. It was predictably a disappointment.

mastax 6y ago
It's telling that even on hackernews nobody knows about the Surface Pro X.
- pjc50 6y ago
  Microsoft's grievous inability to name things doesn't help there. At least it's not the XBox One X.
  - mercer 6y ago
    I imagine they'd be stupid enough to follow that up with something like Xbox Series X to denote a completely new console generation! It's only slightly more stupid than following up a smash hit console called a Wii with a completely new one called Wii U! (I mean, seriously, I'm a proper Nintendo fan but somehow I missed an entire console generation because of stupid naming!)
  - fomine3 6y ago
    I'm really curious why they named "Xbox Series X". It's hard to remembering whether it's latest or not for me (non English-native, Japanese).

ccurrens 6y ago

For consumers, I'm not sure. But I know as part of cutting costs, Azure decided to start running servers on ARM instead of x64: https://www.techrepublic.com/article/windows-server-on-arm-microsoft-moves-beyond-intel-in-its-azure-cloud/ https://www.techrepublic.com/article/windows-server-on-arm-m...

ethbro 6y ago

Windows could probably run on ARM tomorrow (or at least, in 6 months) if Microsoft really wanted it to. What it could probably not do is run-on-ARM with acceptable performance for every legacy app. Windows' bread and butter has always been forever-compatibility (Win API language-of-the-year aside) for long lived business apps. Apple has never, and doesn't seem to want to, competed on that front.

als0 6y ago

It already does run on ARM64 but it is only available to OEMs, meaning that you can't buy it as a consumer. And it only runs on some specific SoCs, most of which are Qualcomm ARM chips. Things are likely to change as more actual ARM64 laptops appear. Some Windows on ARM64 laptops are already available like the HP Envy X2, the Lenovo Yoga C630, and the Microsoft Surface Pro X.

Shorel 6y ago

Windows running on ARM is about as valuable as Linux running on ARM. What makes Windows valuable is the 'legacy' applications.