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Europeans are also good at feeling ashamed of it, and talking publicly about it, and shaming themselves about it. Somehow the fact that the soviets and maoist
by zpeti 6y ago
Europeans are also good at feeling ashamed of it, and talking publicly about it, and shaming themselves about it.
Somehow the fact that the soviets and maoist killed more people each than "europeans" (this is quite the american generalisation) is forgotten, as are japanese atrocities, as are cambodian ones. Also no one seems to talk about the middle east being the centre of the world wide slave trade for a very long time, as opposed to Europeans being at fault for all of it.
- thecleaner 6y agoIt takes courage to admit one's dark history. And kudos to Europe for that. Secondly, why the shaming ? Historical facts should be stated as it is and people living in the present shouldnt be shamed for it. That feels wrong. But one cant adjust admit to some glaring faults and say everything else is great. Colonial mindset is still a thing across Europe. Just look at poverty tourism in Africa. Most tourists are Europeans. Its also very much true that European tourists who go to Vietnam or India or Thailand dont go there for experiencing their culture but to feel better about how life is better in Europe as most would very much tell you in private conversations. There is also the mindset of grateful immigrants rampant across Europe. Like somehow if someone makes it here they should sing the praises of their country because it is clearly a one-sided deal.
- kieckerjan 6y agoExtraordinary claims require better evidence than private communication. People travelling to the other side of the world to feel better about their home country? I am pretty sure you overestimate the lengths that people will go to for a little smugness.
- thecleaner 6y agoSure. Lets remove private communication out of the equation. But poverty tourism is definitely true. The large fraction of tourists are European.
- morsch 6y agoWhat do you mean, it is "true"? It's a thing that exists, sure. But not all tourism to poor countries is sensibly defined as poverty tourism (otherwise the category is worthless). Maybe you can dig up some actual numbers. I'm sure many people visit e.g. Vietnam because it's a convenient way to see a tropical rainforest, or experience the prototypical white sand beach. You might think less of them because they don't care about the culture -- and I think it's a callous waste of resources -- but it's not poverty tourism. Furthermore, I'd naturally assume a large fraction of all long distance travellers to be Europeans, regardless of the motivation. Simply because Europeans make up a large fraction of the world population who can actually afford to do it.
- mda 6y agoEh, I lived in Europe, never got that feeling of the things you described. Sins of fathers are nigh but forgotten / justified (sometimes with whataboutism).
- cafard 6y agoThe Viennese Jewish writer Egon Friedell wrote somewhere that modernity has the advantage of a bad conscience. But weren't most of the Soviets Europeans?
- throwaway0a5e 6y ago>Somehow the fact that the soviets and maoist killed more people each than "europeans" (this is quite the american generalisation) is forgotten, as are japanese atrocities, as are cambodian ones. Also no one seems to talk about the middle east being the centre of the world wide slave trade for a very long time, as opposed to Europeans being at fault for all of it. Until quite recently it was accepted belief in Europe that people from (approximately) east of the Oder and/or south of Constantinople were inferior. "Savages behaving like savages" was generally not paid much attention to (the exceptions being mostly when building a narrative to support conquest and/or religious conversion) by historians and writers because it was written off as them not knowing better. Smart, proper Europeans who should know better killing each other? Well that just can't stand. Even today you still see a lot of this in how events in "less civilized" parts of the world are discussed in the first world. It'll take a couple of centuries for all the spoken and unspoken prejudices of the people who recorded events and studied history in centuries past to filter out.
- brnt 6y agoYou are confusing Europeans with Brits here I believe. And while you'll need to speak other languages to capture most of it, us mainlanders have our opinions of them as well. And of course about each other. It's plural place after all, one of the many things that appears to be lost amongst anglosaxons.
- eru 6y ago> Until quite recently it was accepted belief in Europe that people from (approximately) east of the Oder [...] The Oder wasn't a border until fairly recently. For quite a while, it was just Germany on both sides, without too many distinctions. (Of course, if you go even further back, things get more complicated.) Do you have any sources for your assertions?