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There's this unforgettable plaque in those Vienna "kaffeehauses" I saw in the museum quarter. Something along the lines of "The 400-year old Grand Vienna Teahou

There's this unforgettable plaque in those Vienna "kaffeehauses" I saw in the museum quarter. Something along the lines of "The 400-year old Grand Vienna Teahouse was founded on March 13th, 1938, by Hans Gruberhuber, a humble chimneysweep." Every teahouse had a plaque like this. C'mon. It was the expulsion of Jews that ended Vienna's influence on global culture. It was their struggle that motivated new music. Listen to Schoenberg's music and hear the pain of a man facing seemingly insurmountable discrimination. He anticipated and put into sound a great deal of violence that was and continues to be fought over identity.

ivanhoe 6y ago
Vienna stopped being relevant quickly after the WWI with the end of Austro-Hungarian Monarchy, years before nazis became relevant. Vienna stopped being the economical, academical and art center of the Central Europe. Later events certainly didn't help, but even before that, as the influx of money and fresh people stopped, so did the art - as that always goes hand in hand.
- zhdc1 6y ago
  This. Prague was arguably another casualty.
thecleaner 6y ago
I think this kind of sugarcoating is commom across Europe. Usually history is treated here like WWs were kind of an anomaly in an otherwise glorious history. We all know that this is not the case. European history is riddled with tales of genocide and oppression, mostly in the colonies sometimes within Europe. So what you see here is a data point in a general pattern.
- malandrew 6y ago
  There’s nothing particularly European about what you describe though. These types of events have occurred pretty much everywhere in the world throughout history. They aren’t European patterns. They are human ones.
  - eru 6y ago
    The Europeans were just particularly good at it. Much better especially at war than the rest of the world for a while. Many people around the world had the will, but the Europeans also had the means.
    - zpeti 6y ago
      Europeans are also good at feeling ashamed of it, and talking publicly about it, and shaming themselves about it. Somehow the fact that the soviets and maoist killed more people each than "europeans" (this is quite the american generalisation) is forgotten, as are japanese atrocities, as are cambodian ones. Also no one seems to talk about the middle east being the centre of the world wide slave trade for a very long time, as opposed to Europeans being at fault for all of it.
      - thecleaner 6y ago
        It takes courage to admit one's dark history. And kudos to Europe for that. Secondly, why the shaming ? Historical facts should be stated as it is and people living in the present shouldnt be shamed for it. That feels wrong. But one cant adjust admit to some glaring faults and say everything else is great. Colonial mindset is still a thing across Europe. Just look at poverty tourism in Africa. Most tourists are Europeans. Its also very much true that European tourists who go to Vietnam or India or Thailand dont go there for experiencing their culture but to feel better about how life is better in Europe as most would very much tell you in private conversations. There is also the mindset of grateful immigrants rampant across Europe. Like somehow if someone makes it here they should sing the praises of their country because it is clearly a one-sided deal.
        kieckerjan 6y ago
        Extraordinary claims require better evidence than private communication. People travelling to the other side of the world to feel better about their home country? I am pretty sure you overestimate the lengths that people will go to for a little smugness.
- seemslegit 6y ago
  If the "colonies" had kept their history recorded prior to being colonized it would not have been prettier than whatever was done in Europe or by Europe - the Chinese, Persians and Mongol/Turkic occupied lands that did record history from pretty early on have documented every kind of mass, group and individual atrocities imaginable take place. Same for everything that as far as we know took place in the Americas prior to colonizaton.
  - knolax 6y ago
    whataboutism.
    - seemslegit 6y ago
      what about it ?
  - thecleaner 6y ago
    Colonies did keep their histories recorded. It was systematically destroyed. Dutch in Indonesia, British in India, Europeans in America. It is very common to find mass graves in Africa even now for which there doesnt seem to be any records about how they came to be.
    - seemslegit 6y ago
      The lack of recorded history is more about the west-central African, Caribean and American colonies. India has a decent historic record surviving today and it shows the usual story of class-stratified kingdoms waging wars, persecuting ethno-religious outgroups etc. Source for the systematic destruction of historic documents in India and America ?
      - jan_Inkepa 6y ago
        Not an answer to your question, https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/03086534.2017.1294256?scroll=top&needAccess=true#_i4 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/03086534.2017.1... doesn’t speak about India (which I fully accept might be a counter-example), but you can add Sri Lanka/Malaysia/Malta to the list of places with untrustworthy records, and it casts suspicion on others. (the article also makes clear at least sometimes it was done with the consent of the new regime).
ImaCake 6y ago
Stefan Zweig in his "World of Yesterday" captures the essence of your argument well. Although I think we says more that WW1 combined with the Nazi takeover later was responsible, rather than specifically the racist attacks on Jews. He has a haunting few lines where he talks about those Jews in Vienna ("they") in the days preceding the Nazi anschluss: >They invited each other to full-dress parties (little thinking that they would soon be wearing prisoner’s clothes in a concentration camp), they were lavish customers at Christmas for their beautiful homes (little thinking that in a few months they would be confiscated and plundered). And this eternal gay unconcern of old Vienna which I had formerly so much loved and which, as a matter of fact, I am always redreaming, this gay unconcern which Vienna’s poet laureate Anzengruber once caught concisely in Es kann Dir nix g’schehn–for the first time it gave me pain.
- 082349872349872 6y ago
  It's too bad Zweig committed suicide after finishing Die Welt von Gestern. If he'd hung on for a year or two he would've seen the tide turning.
  - bogomipz 6y ago
    His post-Austrian life came to quite a sad end. Both he and his wife committed suicide together, shortly after mailing his final manuscript to the publisher. This is an interesting read on what unfolded for him in Brazil: https://www.handelsblatt.com/today/politics/death-in-exile-explaining-the-suicide-of-stefan-zweig/23565614.html https://www.handelsblatt.com/today/politics/death-in-exile-e...
- svara 6y ago
  I just want to say that's one of the greatest books I've read in recent years. Highly recommended!
  - odiroot 6y ago
    I'm reading this book in original, for over a year now. The language is quite hard.
moesi 6y ago
Sure, that's true, but only partly. Austria lost an empire at the end of WWI. I come from an area that used to be part of that empire, and until WWI, if you were talented and ambitious, you went to study in Vienna. Many of the locally recognized writers, artists etc. did. And some stayed there for their entire careers. That all ended after the war.
jariel 6y ago
" It was the expulsion of Jews ... It was their struggle that motivated new music. Listen to Schoenberg's music and hear the pain of a man facing seemingly insurmountable discrimination" ? The Jews, at least as a group, were relatively wealthy and literally owned most of the financial sector and occupied large swaths of the professional class, and had for quite some time. 50% of doctors. 82% of credit bureaus. 75% of banks. 85% of lawyers. 75% of textile. etc. (This is list is very long) [1] That's not to take away from the horror of the Nazis, but it's hard to fathom your causal notion otherwise. I would go with the answers below i.e. 'End of Austria-Hungary ex-Habsbourg Empire' [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Vienna https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Vienna

ivanhoe 6y ago

Vienna stopped being relevant quickly after the WWI with the end of Austro-Hungarian Monarchy, years before nazis became relevant. Vienna stopped being the economical, academical and art center of the Central Europe. Later events certainly didn't help, but even before that, as the influx of money and fresh people stopped, so did the art - as that always goes hand in hand.

zhdc1 6y ago
This. Prague was arguably another casualty.

thecleaner 6y ago

I think this kind of sugarcoating is commom across Europe. Usually history is treated here like WWs were kind of an anomaly in an otherwise glorious history. We all know that this is not the case. European history is riddled with tales of genocide and oppression, mostly in the colonies sometimes within Europe. So what you see here is a data point in a general pattern.

malandrew 6y ago
There’s nothing particularly European about what you describe though. These types of events have occurred pretty much everywhere in the world throughout history. They aren’t European patterns. They are human ones.
- eru 6y ago
  The Europeans were just particularly good at it. Much better especially at war than the rest of the world for a while. Many people around the world had the will, but the Europeans also had the means.
  - zpeti 6y ago
    Europeans are also good at feeling ashamed of it, and talking publicly about it, and shaming themselves about it. Somehow the fact that the soviets and maoist killed more people each than "europeans" (this is quite the american generalisation) is forgotten, as are japanese atrocities, as are cambodian ones. Also no one seems to talk about the middle east being the centre of the world wide slave trade for a very long time, as opposed to Europeans being at fault for all of it.
    - thecleaner 6y ago
      It takes courage to admit one's dark history. And kudos to Europe for that. Secondly, why the shaming ? Historical facts should be stated as it is and people living in the present shouldnt be shamed for it. That feels wrong. But one cant adjust admit to some glaring faults and say everything else is great. Colonial mindset is still a thing across Europe. Just look at poverty tourism in Africa. Most tourists are Europeans. Its also very much true that European tourists who go to Vietnam or India or Thailand dont go there for experiencing their culture but to feel better about how life is better in Europe as most would very much tell you in private conversations. There is also the mindset of grateful immigrants rampant across Europe. Like somehow if someone makes it here they should sing the praises of their country because it is clearly a one-sided deal.
      - kieckerjan 6y ago
        Extraordinary claims require better evidence than private communication. People travelling to the other side of the world to feel better about their home country? I am pretty sure you overestimate the lengths that people will go to for a little smugness.
seemslegit 6y ago
If the "colonies" had kept their history recorded prior to being colonized it would not have been prettier than whatever was done in Europe or by Europe - the Chinese, Persians and Mongol/Turkic occupied lands that did record history from pretty early on have documented every kind of mass, group and individual atrocities imaginable take place. Same for everything that as far as we know took place in the Americas prior to colonizaton.
- knolax 6y ago
  whataboutism.
  - seemslegit 6y ago
    what about it ?
- thecleaner 6y ago
  Colonies did keep their histories recorded. It was systematically destroyed. Dutch in Indonesia, British in India, Europeans in America. It is very common to find mass graves in Africa even now for which there doesnt seem to be any records about how they came to be.
  - seemslegit 6y ago
    The lack of recorded history is more about the west-central African, Caribean and American colonies. India has a decent historic record surviving today and it shows the usual story of class-stratified kingdoms waging wars, persecuting ethno-religious outgroups etc. Source for the systematic destruction of historic documents in India and America ?
    - jan_Inkepa 6y ago
      Not an answer to your question, https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/03086534.2017.1294256?scroll=top&needAccess=true#_i4 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/03086534.2017.1... doesn’t speak about India (which I fully accept might be a counter-example), but you can add Sri Lanka/Malaysia/Malta to the list of places with untrustworthy records, and it casts suspicion on others. (the article also makes clear at least sometimes it was done with the consent of the new regime).

ImaCake 6y ago

Stefan Zweig in his "World of Yesterday" captures the essence of your argument well. Although I think we says more that WW1 combined with the Nazi takeover later was responsible, rather than specifically the racist attacks on Jews. He has a haunting few lines where he talks about those Jews in Vienna ("they") in the days preceding the Nazi anschluss: >They invited each other to full-dress parties (little thinking that they would soon be wearing prisoner’s clothes in a concentration camp), they were lavish customers at Christmas for their beautiful homes (little thinking that in a few months they would be confiscated and plundered). And this eternal gay unconcern of old Vienna which I had formerly so much loved and which, as a matter of fact, I am always redreaming, this gay unconcern which Vienna’s poet laureate Anzengruber once caught concisely in Es kann Dir nix g’schehn–for the first time it gave me pain.

082349872349872 6y ago
It's too bad Zweig committed suicide after finishing Die Welt von Gestern. If he'd hung on for a year or two he would've seen the tide turning.
- bogomipz 6y ago
  His post-Austrian life came to quite a sad end. Both he and his wife committed suicide together, shortly after mailing his final manuscript to the publisher. This is an interesting read on what unfolded for him in Brazil: https://www.handelsblatt.com/today/politics/death-in-exile-explaining-the-suicide-of-stefan-zweig/23565614.html https://www.handelsblatt.com/today/politics/death-in-exile-e...
svara 6y ago
I just want to say that's one of the greatest books I've read in recent years. Highly recommended!
- odiroot 6y ago
  I'm reading this book in original, for over a year now. The language is quite hard.

moesi 6y ago

Sure, that's true, but only partly. Austria lost an empire at the end of WWI. I come from an area that used to be part of that empire, and until WWI, if you were talented and ambitious, you went to study in Vienna. Many of the locally recognized writers, artists etc. did. And some stayed there for their entire careers. That all ended after the war.

jariel 6y ago

" It was the expulsion of Jews ... It was their struggle that motivated new music. Listen to Schoenberg's music and hear the pain of a man facing seemingly insurmountable discrimination" ? The Jews, at least as a group, were relatively wealthy and literally owned most of the financial sector and occupied large swaths of the professional class, and had for quite some time. 50% of doctors. 82% of credit bureaus. 75% of banks. 85% of lawyers. 75% of textile. etc. (This is list is very long) [1] That's not to take away from the horror of the Nazis, but it's hard to fathom your causal notion otherwise. I would go with the answers below i.e. 'End of Austria-Hungary ex-Habsbourg Empire' [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Vienna https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Vienna