5 ms·

Starting with the first critique in your list of citations, the Vox article - third paragraph: > He uses primarily stereotyped misconceptions about men and wom

by s4n1ty 6y ago

Starting with the first critique in your list of citations, the Vox article - third paragraph: > He uses primarily stereotyped misconceptions about men and women to argue that “gender gaps [do not always] imply sexism,” and declares that “discriminating just to increase the representation of women in tech” is “misguided and biased” as well as “unfair, divisive, and bad for business.” The question of stereotyping is addressed in the memo itself: > I value diversity and inclusion, am not denying that sexism exists, and don’t endorse using stereotypes. When addressing the gap in representation in the population, we need to look at population level differences in distributions. If we can't have an honest discussion about this,then we can never truly solve the problem. Can you point to where in Damore's memo he relies on stereotyped misconceptions? I've read it many times and I didn't see anything fitting that characterization. Specificity would be helpful.

tptacek 6y ago
No. You cannot pepper a thread with demands for people to source their arguments and then confront a wall of sources with your own ad hoc thoughts. Source your rebuttals comparably. You set the bar, now clear it yourself.
- s4n1ty 6y ago
  I haven't demanded anything of anyone, but for some reason you're telling me what I cannot do. Are you a moderator? Where people have made scientific claims I've asked them for the source of their information. This is a reasonable question - not a "demand". When someone replies to you citing another argument, it's reasonable to read that argument and to point out any flaws in it if you see them. That's what I did here. Was I not supposed to read it? My argument doesn't rely on any citation other than Damore's memo itself, since it is the topic of discussion. I've already provided a link to that but here it is again for convenience: [1] I followed the witch hunt against Damore very closely both at the time and since. Without exception, every single critique I've read of Damore's memo is either a straw man, ad hominem, or a combination of both. If you know of any counterexamples I'm happy to review them, but please pick the strongest argument rather than a long list[2] [1] https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/3914586/Googles-Ideological-Echo-Chamber.pdf https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/3914586/Googles-I... [2] https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gish_Gallop https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gish_Gallop
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - light_cone 6y ago
    There is no use arguing in this woke universe. I am fed up with it. Gosh I am so fed up. If you still want to try, sincere good luck. As soon as you try to actually be given precise examples to back the myriad of baseless assertions, because you actually want to learn something as long as it's proven (ie scientific), then you are given the runaround, the goalposts are shifted, you are gaslighted and told to be supportive instead of asking questions, or simply ignored. This whole dogma is simply unfalsifiable. Plain and simple. And even if you get to the scientific arguments... how to explain (and be believed!) that a significant part of the scientific world has been hijacked, and there is now an entire part of science where rigorous scientific methodology does not apply. To the public eye it's still written science, therefore truthful. Disclaimer: Of course, I am not saying anything that I am not actually saying, despite the current tendency of some people to extrapolate to the moon the darkest opinions, thoughts, intentions and general respectability from someone speaking a narrow intervention on a specific topic. The issues evoked here are important, my rant has nothing to do with their gravity. I should not have to say it if people were reasonable in the first place. Thank you internet for reading my rant. I am not sure it has accomplished anything, but apparently the submit button has been clicked anyway :)
    - s4n1ty 6y ago
      Yeah, there is a real "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" vibe to the whole woke thing. Creeps me out. Hope I'm not speaking too soon, but it seems like actual liberals on the left are finally waking up to this Kafkaesque ideology they've been making excuses for [1] [1] https://harpers.org/a-letter-on-justice-and-open-debate/ https://harpers.org/a-letter-on-justice-and-open-debate/
      - pvg 6y ago
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMqZ2PPOLik https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMqZ2PPOLik [1] [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMqZ2PPOLik https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMqZ2PPOLik

by s4n1ty 6y ago

tptacek 6y ago

No. You cannot pepper a thread with demands for people to source their arguments and then confront a wall of sources with your own ad hoc thoughts. Source your rebuttals comparably. You set the bar, now clear it yourself.

s4n1ty 6y ago
I haven't demanded anything of anyone, but for some reason you're telling me what I cannot do. Are you a moderator? Where people have made scientific claims I've asked them for the source of their information. This is a reasonable question - not a "demand". When someone replies to you citing another argument, it's reasonable to read that argument and to point out any flaws in it if you see them. That's what I did here. Was I not supposed to read it? My argument doesn't rely on any citation other than Damore's memo itself, since it is the topic of discussion. I've already provided a link to that but here it is again for convenience: [1] I followed the witch hunt against Damore very closely both at the time and since. Without exception, every single critique I've read of Damore's memo is either a straw man, ad hominem, or a combination of both. If you know of any counterexamples I'm happy to review them, but please pick the strongest argument rather than a long list[2] [1] https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/3914586/Googles-Ideological-Echo-Chamber.pdf https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/3914586/Googles-I... [2] https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gish_Gallop https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gish_Gallop
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- light_cone 6y ago
  There is no use arguing in this woke universe. I am fed up with it. Gosh I am so fed up. If you still want to try, sincere good luck. As soon as you try to actually be given precise examples to back the myriad of baseless assertions, because you actually want to learn something as long as it's proven (ie scientific), then you are given the runaround, the goalposts are shifted, you are gaslighted and told to be supportive instead of asking questions, or simply ignored. This whole dogma is simply unfalsifiable. Plain and simple. And even if you get to the scientific arguments... how to explain (and be believed!) that a significant part of the scientific world has been hijacked, and there is now an entire part of science where rigorous scientific methodology does not apply. To the public eye it's still written science, therefore truthful. Disclaimer: Of course, I am not saying anything that I am not actually saying, despite the current tendency of some people to extrapolate to the moon the darkest opinions, thoughts, intentions and general respectability from someone speaking a narrow intervention on a specific topic. The issues evoked here are important, my rant has nothing to do with their gravity. I should not have to say it if people were reasonable in the first place. Thank you internet for reading my rant. I am not sure it has accomplished anything, but apparently the submit button has been clicked anyway :)
  - s4n1ty 6y ago
    Yeah, there is a real "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" vibe to the whole woke thing. Creeps me out. Hope I'm not speaking too soon, but it seems like actual liberals on the left are finally waking up to this Kafkaesque ideology they've been making excuses for [1] [1] https://harpers.org/a-letter-on-justice-and-open-debate/ https://harpers.org/a-letter-on-justice-and-open-debate/
    - pvg 6y ago
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMqZ2PPOLik https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMqZ2PPOLik [1] [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMqZ2PPOLik https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMqZ2PPOLik