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>snapd not open-source. Red herring. The Linux Mint teams' main complaints have to do with issues around the way snap wrests control from the user. >I will re

>snapd not open-source. Red herring. The Linux Mint teams' main complaints have to do with issues around the way snap wrests control from the user. >I will remind people that the most popular PPA to this day is a Java PPA being run by some 3rd party that doesn't offer Java. That PPA has root access to thousands of machines. Imagine strawman-ing this hard.

kd913 6y ago
>Red herring. The Linux Mint teams' main complaints have to do with issues around the way snap wrests control from the user. Like Linux Mint is doing the same? There is no control being lost by using Ubuntu versus Mint. I could remove snapd there without people making that decision for me. Worse would be Mint's decision of removing the only FOSS built version of chromium without offering an alternative in place. Canonical only installed the chromium snap because they did not have the resources to support a deb version instead. >Imagine strawman-ing this hard. It isn't a strawman. It is precisely what their reasoning was and it makes perfect sense. The snap store has already seen people attempt to install cryptominers. There is no way in Flatpak of banning known malicious flathub repos.
- the_af 6y ago
  > Like Linux Mint is doing the same? There is no control being lost by using Ubuntu versus Mint. If I understood the issue correctly (and I may very well be mistaken!) the problem Mint has with Canonical is that Ubuntu has "hijacked" (for lack of a better term) some apt packages so that they now actually install snapd and the snap. So you think you're opting out of snap, but when you use apt to install Chromium you end up using snap anyway. If I understand correctly, this is Mint's main complaint: that Ubuntu seems to be hijacking apt packages with snap.
  - kd913 6y ago
    There is no apt package with Chromium. https://ubuntu.com/blog/chromium-in-ubuntu-deb-to-snap-transition https://ubuntu.com/blog/chromium-in-ubuntu-deb-to-snap-trans... Canonical couldn't afford the maintenance costs for it. On Ubuntu distributions it's either the snap or you have to create some weird frankendeb aspect by pulling from Debian. They explained it better than I would. In other cases, I don't think of a case where apt installs snaps over apt. I think the only priority for the decision choice was based on most recent version. Although this aspect I am slightly unclear.
    - the_af 6y ago
      Oh. If there is no Chromium apt package, isn't the following from TFA (lwn) misleading? > The problem was the decision to change the Ubuntu chromium-browser APT package itself upstream in Ubuntu. Previously, that package would simply install Chromium directly. With the change, it would instead install the Snap package-management tools first and then install the Snap equivalent of the Chromium package — without making it clear to the user what was happening.
      - zerocrates 6y ago
        There is a Chromium package in the Ubuntu apt repositories, which installs Chromium through snap. I just use the Chrome apt repository from Google which seems simpler all around.
    - dilandau 6y ago
      And yet they have all the time in the world to spend on an invasive daemon that pulls updates OTA without user consent. Plus all the other bullshit they've tried (Mir, unity, juju or whatever it's called). Thankfully Debian is still true to the game.
    - jwitthuhn 6y ago
      There is no apt package with chromium, but there is an apt package name 'chromium-browser'. https://packages.ubuntu.com/focal/chromium-browser https://packages.ubuntu.com/focal/chromium-browser In previous versions of ubuntu, that package would install chromium, as one would expect. In recent versions of ubuntu, this package is a stub that installs snapd, and then snapd installs chromium. There is a substantial difference between those two things. Users that try to install chromium through an open package management system are being pushed to Canonical's proprietary store.
- dilandau 6y ago
  Another red herring, and also moving the goalposts. Quit shilling.
  - dang 6y ago
    If you keep breaking the site guidelines, we're going to have to ban you. Would you mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and sticking to the rules when posting here?
- hannasanarion 6y ago
  > Canonical only installed the chromium snap because they did not have the resources to support a deb version instead So Canonical has the resources to make an entire DE, an init system, a mobile OS, a new display server (all of which were dumped on the roadside), and then going all in on a brand new sandboxing/package management system developed from scratch, but merely compiling a web browser officially supported by google and used by nearly every single one of their users is too much work?
  - xet7 6y ago
    Yes. There is huge difference between: a) One Snap package that supports all Ubuntu distros from 14.04 to newest, and also many other distros than Ubuntu b) Compiling separate .deb package for all those Ubuntu versions from 14.04 to newest. Chromium has huge amount of code that takes a lot of time to compile.

kd913 6y ago

>Red herring. The Linux Mint teams' main complaints have to do with issues around the way snap wrests control from the user. Like Linux Mint is doing the same? There is no control being lost by using Ubuntu versus Mint. I could remove snapd there without people making that decision for me. Worse would be Mint's decision of removing the only FOSS built version of chromium without offering an alternative in place. Canonical only installed the chromium snap because they did not have the resources to support a deb version instead. >Imagine strawman-ing this hard. It isn't a strawman. It is precisely what their reasoning was and it makes perfect sense. The snap store has already seen people attempt to install cryptominers. There is no way in Flatpak of banning known malicious flathub repos.

the_af 6y ago
> Like Linux Mint is doing the same? There is no control being lost by using Ubuntu versus Mint. If I understood the issue correctly (and I may very well be mistaken!) the problem Mint has with Canonical is that Ubuntu has "hijacked" (for lack of a better term) some apt packages so that they now actually install snapd and the snap. So you think you're opting out of snap, but when you use apt to install Chromium you end up using snap anyway. If I understand correctly, this is Mint's main complaint: that Ubuntu seems to be hijacking apt packages with snap.
- kd913 6y ago
  There is no apt package with Chromium. https://ubuntu.com/blog/chromium-in-ubuntu-deb-to-snap-transition https://ubuntu.com/blog/chromium-in-ubuntu-deb-to-snap-trans... Canonical couldn't afford the maintenance costs for it. On Ubuntu distributions it's either the snap or you have to create some weird frankendeb aspect by pulling from Debian. They explained it better than I would. In other cases, I don't think of a case where apt installs snaps over apt. I think the only priority for the decision choice was based on most recent version. Although this aspect I am slightly unclear.
  - the_af 6y ago
    Oh. If there is no Chromium apt package, isn't the following from TFA (lwn) misleading? > The problem was the decision to change the Ubuntu chromium-browser APT package itself upstream in Ubuntu. Previously, that package would simply install Chromium directly. With the change, it would instead install the Snap package-management tools first and then install the Snap equivalent of the Chromium package — without making it clear to the user what was happening.
    - zerocrates 6y ago
      There is a Chromium package in the Ubuntu apt repositories, which installs Chromium through snap. I just use the Chrome apt repository from Google which seems simpler all around.
  - dilandau 6y ago
    And yet they have all the time in the world to spend on an invasive daemon that pulls updates OTA without user consent. Plus all the other bullshit they've tried (Mir, unity, juju or whatever it's called). Thankfully Debian is still true to the game.
  - jwitthuhn 6y ago
    There is no apt package with chromium, but there is an apt package name 'chromium-browser'. https://packages.ubuntu.com/focal/chromium-browser https://packages.ubuntu.com/focal/chromium-browser In previous versions of ubuntu, that package would install chromium, as one would expect. In recent versions of ubuntu, this package is a stub that installs snapd, and then snapd installs chromium. There is a substantial difference between those two things. Users that try to install chromium through an open package management system are being pushed to Canonical's proprietary store.
dilandau 6y ago
Another red herring, and also moving the goalposts. Quit shilling.
- dang 6y ago
  If you keep breaking the site guidelines, we're going to have to ban you. Would you mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and sticking to the rules when posting here?
hannasanarion 6y ago
> Canonical only installed the chromium snap because they did not have the resources to support a deb version instead So Canonical has the resources to make an entire DE, an init system, a mobile OS, a new display server (all of which were dumped on the roadside), and then going all in on a brand new sandboxing/package management system developed from scratch, but merely compiling a web browser officially supported by google and used by nearly every single one of their users is too much work?
- xet7 6y ago
  Yes. There is huge difference between: a) One Snap package that supports all Ubuntu distros from 14.04 to newest, and also many other distros than Ubuntu b) Compiling separate .deb package for all those Ubuntu versions from 14.04 to newest. Chromium has huge amount of code that takes a lot of time to compile.