3 ms·

I'm sure this will be downvoted into oblivion, but short of these regulations being illegal they are actually in the national interest IMHO. From a national sec

I'm sure this will be downvoted into oblivion, but short of these regulations being illegal they are actually in the national interest IMHO. From a national security standpoint the universities have been a big trojan horse. At many state schools international students are also nothing but large cash cows and a source for cheap research labor. For years I was a pro-education person, but most of the US institutions have been hijacked by political activists who have significantly watered down the curriculums. We need a massive reset of the entire system and significantly limiting foreign students needs to be part of that.

mattwad 6y ago
They would be great except the problem is once you're done with school, it can be incredibly hard to stay in the US. So we end up losing the people we help train. Fixing it by reducing these students entirely is going in the wrong direction.
- lgleason 6y ago
  The ones that stay are also national security risks in some instances. At some point, and feel free to call me crazy for saying this, but wouldn't it make sense for US educational institutions to be primarily focused on educating US citizens... in the same way that a UK, French, South African, Chinese etc. university should be focused on educating their respective citizens first and foremost? It's one thing to let a very select group of foreign students in who are truly exceptional, but that is not what is happening today. Instead most are letting anybody in who is willing to pay the money. So it's really just another back door into the US labor market and companies wanting cheap labor love having a larger supply of that.
  - chrchang523 6y ago
    I'd argue that the US actually has a national security interest in facilitating India's development, in a way that is obviously not true for China at this point.
  - greenonions 6y ago
    >It's one thing to let a very select group of foreign students in who are truly exceptional, but that is not what is happening today. Do you have any evidence for this? The incredibly vast amount of research work done by immigrants on these visas probably outweighs any risk they pose as these educated people head back after graduating or try to stay. You're not crazy. You're a cogent individual deliberately believing something that is not true or guided by reality. This decision will not be beneficial for national security at all, and that wasn't even used as justification for it.
nsm 6y ago
If that is the intent behind such decisions, a more reasonable (and not punitive) response is to give a couple of years notice to universities (let them wind down operations) and allow students already enrolled to finish their education. Not “Go home right now or you will be deported, and forget about the full tuition you paid.”
gnulinux 6y ago
> I was a pro-education person I must say: I'm genuinely surprised reading this sentence in HN. It's very disappointing.
- lgleason 6y ago
  Let me clarify this. I'm a pro-enlightenment education, which is pro-science. But, todays system has become a postmodernist indoctrination mill which is anti-science. Unfortunately, while public education, stressing university education etc. sounded great in theory, and I supported that for years, looking at the results of that effort, the academic standards have gone down. Thus, time to look into doing something different because todays system is no longer effective and in some aspects could be called a net negative.
ak217 6y ago
From a national security standpoint, it's hard to think of anything more important to the US than a continued flow of high-achieving immigrants who want to relocate here to educate themselves and contribute to the US society, and the international students (even those with non-immigrant status) are a pivotal component of that flow. Every international student who comes to the US has already self-selected on initiative, aptitude and perseverance. Allowing these students to stay is a net win for the US, and a net loss for their country of origin. Even if they don't immigrate themselves, they enable the continued cultural influence and appeal of the US in their extended networks. You only need to look at major national security events in the US history to see the disproportionate positive impact that first-generation immigrants had at every turn. Far from furthering US national security interests, your "massive reset" would itself be a national security threat.

mattwad 6y ago

They would be great except the problem is once you're done with school, it can be incredibly hard to stay in the US. So we end up losing the people we help train. Fixing it by reducing these students entirely is going in the wrong direction.

lgleason 6y ago
The ones that stay are also national security risks in some instances. At some point, and feel free to call me crazy for saying this, but wouldn't it make sense for US educational institutions to be primarily focused on educating US citizens... in the same way that a UK, French, South African, Chinese etc. university should be focused on educating their respective citizens first and foremost? It's one thing to let a very select group of foreign students in who are truly exceptional, but that is not what is happening today. Instead most are letting anybody in who is willing to pay the money. So it's really just another back door into the US labor market and companies wanting cheap labor love having a larger supply of that.
- chrchang523 6y ago
  I'd argue that the US actually has a national security interest in facilitating India's development, in a way that is obviously not true for China at this point.
- greenonions 6y ago
  >It's one thing to let a very select group of foreign students in who are truly exceptional, but that is not what is happening today. Do you have any evidence for this? The incredibly vast amount of research work done by immigrants on these visas probably outweighs any risk they pose as these educated people head back after graduating or try to stay. You're not crazy. You're a cogent individual deliberately believing something that is not true or guided by reality. This decision will not be beneficial for national security at all, and that wasn't even used as justification for it.

nsm 6y ago

If that is the intent behind such decisions, a more reasonable (and not punitive) response is to give a couple of years notice to universities (let them wind down operations) and allow students already enrolled to finish their education. Not “Go home right now or you will be deported, and forget about the full tuition you paid.”

gnulinux 6y ago

> I was a pro-education person I must say: I'm genuinely surprised reading this sentence in HN. It's very disappointing.

lgleason 6y ago
Let me clarify this. I'm a pro-enlightenment education, which is pro-science. But, todays system has become a postmodernist indoctrination mill which is anti-science. Unfortunately, while public education, stressing university education etc. sounded great in theory, and I supported that for years, looking at the results of that effort, the academic standards have gone down. Thus, time to look into doing something different because todays system is no longer effective and in some aspects could be called a net negative.

ak217 6y ago

From a national security standpoint, it's hard to think of anything more important to the US than a continued flow of high-achieving immigrants who want to relocate here to educate themselves and contribute to the US society, and the international students (even those with non-immigrant status) are a pivotal component of that flow. Every international student who comes to the US has already self-selected on initiative, aptitude and perseverance. Allowing these students to stay is a net win for the US, and a net loss for their country of origin. Even if they don't immigrate themselves, they enable the continued cultural influence and appeal of the US in their extended networks. You only need to look at major national security events in the US history to see the disproportionate positive impact that first-generation immigrants had at every turn. Far from furthering US national security interests, your "massive reset" would itself be a national security threat.