5 ms·

This appears to be an appropriate response, rather than hacking around the edict by creating pro-forma trivial in-person classes.

by ISL 6y ago

runawaybottle 6y ago
I think both are necessary. ICE is ridiculous, there should be a reasonable exception given the pandemic. I’m embarrassed this is happening in America.
- letusknow123 6y ago
  So we should ignore laws during times of pandemic? Edit: I can’t seem to reply to the comment below mine this might be due to the negative karma. I will edit this comment as my reply. I was a foreigner on a visa for 14 years in America. A lot of these students are playing the system if ICE is deporting them for things like not studying or breaking the rules of the visa then they are doing their job. I have been in their position and they give you a lot of chances if ICE has to grab you then your doing something really wrong. Edit #2: reply button is back. Edit #3: you can downvote me as much as you want but it doesn’t change facts.
  - nine_zeros 6y ago
    Are laws meant to serve the people or to arrest them to slavery? Is a pandemic not a good enough reason to create exceptions? More importantly, if this administration could create exceptions for tax filing, printing money and stopping evictions, why can't they do it for the health of schools and educators?
    - letusknow123 6y ago
      Laws are meant to serve the people. However I feel there is more to this story. We can’t just tell ICE to ignore the law. The law should be updated if necessary but as of now it’s the law. Pandemic is a good reason for exceptions they can bring this up in immigration court. That’s what it’s for. They should have changed the law way before ICE came don’t you think? Why is it a concern now? I feel like something isn’t being presented.
      - nine_zeros 6y ago
        Why don't you apply the same logic to PPP program or eviction moratorium or tax returns? > However I feel there is more to this story. We can’t just tell Treasury and FED to ignore the law. The law should be updated if necessary but as of now it’s the law. Pandemic is a good reason for exceptions they can bring this up in supreme court. That’s what it’s for. > They should have changed the law way before the FED came don’t you think? Why is it a concern now? I feel like something isn’t being presented. Either you are being naive or more likely evasive. We elect lawmakers to make the right choices on our behalf, NOT to rigidly debate laws in emergencies. Selectively applying exceptions in one place while not at another (clearly marked by partisan politics) is NOT representative.
  - runawaybottle 6y ago
    Yes, the international students followed the rules to get a student visa and get accepted into a university. They arranged for everything from admission/acceptance to travel to tuition. The pandemic a calamitous event and the law needs exemptions for this scenario. Edit: To the OP, I know how the system is played too, many immigration cases involve some level of fraud. Regardless, the cruelty factor of the system is that it allows you to commit your life to living here, while at the same time maintaining the threat of the rug being pulled out from right under you. It’s intense, and I’d like to see some of that mitigated. “Immediate deportation” is the scariest thing for anyone without a Green card.
    - letusknow123 6y ago
      I agree it’s very scary but as of now they have to debate their case in immigration court. MIT and Harvard should have made a case for this a long time ago. I also want to know if they are grabbing all student or those they suspect of things like working on their visa. If your like me you understand some people just really game the system.
      - UncleMeat 6y ago
        They should have preemptively assumed that the administration would suddenly withdraw the exception due to the pandemic? What? Nobody is gaming the system here. These are normal students who just want to live their lives without being told to pack up and leave with a couple weeks notice. Can you imagine the stress knowing that even if you do literally everything right that some bonehead who hates immigrants can change policy and suddenly make you need to completely rearrange your life?
        letusknow123 6y ago
        The administration told them there would be some kind of action in the fall I believe. So yes they should have prepared breaking rules of the visa is very serious not something they should have been taking lightly because of previous administrations.
  - igneo676 6y ago
    No. Ideally, ICE would've announced this much sooner so that Universities could prepare. Or asked for an exception or the laws changed so that this isn't a problem. Instead they chose to announce this and give universities 9 days to get everything figured out. This is patently immoral for visa holders that would otherwise be allowed to be in the country given any other circumstances (ie not a global pandemic)
    - letusknow123 6y ago
      Can they not continue their education online from their host countries and re-enter the US at a later time?
      - kkaranth 6y ago
        The problem is with international students already in the country risking traveling during a pandemic. Or the alternative: risking in-person classes.
        letusknow123 6y ago
        The schools can just provide an in person class once a week and they could wear a mask in class and sit farther away from people. I think a lot of these students either don’t want to go to class or are working on their visa. I’ve been in their situation so I have a doubt ICE is randomly coming for them. If they did nothing wrong they can present their case in immigration court.
        nsm 6y ago
        If you were actually someone who has been through the US immigration process, your lack of empathy is appalling.
        ra7 6y ago
        > I’ve been in their situation You’ve been in their situation of being forced to attend in-person classes during a pandemic?
Aunche 6y ago
I think a trivial in-person classes may be an intentional loophole. It stops online-only universities from being a gateway to an easy long-term Visa.
- addicted 6y ago
  There is no such thing as an easy long term visa for these schools to be a gateway for.
  - Aunche 6y ago
    I meant longer term visas rather than semipermanent visas. You could pay a few thousand a year for an online college to stay in the US wherever you want. I'm not sure why anyone would want to do that, but it's probably easier to work under the table this way when you don't have to worry about being deported.
  - marcinzm 6y ago
    Sure there is or at least significantly easier than without going to a US school. There's a reason all these international students are going to US schools. Go to a US school. Get OPT visa status upon graduation for 3 years. Get a job at a US company using OPT status for your work authorization. Have US company file for a H1B lottery every year until OPT runs out. This whole time you're legally allowed to work in the US.
lalos 6y ago
Hacking? You're in for a surprise when you discover what tax attorneys do everyday. If that's the way it was written, it's mostly fair game. That's why it's tough to write effective laws that consider the actual incentives that they are placing instead of what they (whoever is writing) are expecting to happen in their minds.
milquetoastaf 6y ago
"Please tell us about the time you most successfully hacked some (non-computer) system to your advantage?" https://medium.com/terminal-1/please-tell-us-about-the-time-you-most-successfully-hacked-some-non-computer-system-to-your-b640e0200b28 https://medium.com/terminal-1/please-tell-us-about-the-time-... http://www.paulgraham.com/founders.html http://www.paulgraham.com/founders.html
vkou 6y ago
Malicious compliance is a perfectly appropriate response to a malicious law.
- ISL 6y ago
  It is a mitigation strategy, but it doesn't fix the problem directly.
  - vkou 6y ago
    No, it's what you fall back on when you can't fix the problem directly.

This appears to be an appropriate response, rather than hacking around the edict by creating pro-forma trivial in-person classes.

by ISL 6y ago

This appears to be an appropriate response, rather than hacking around the edict by creating pro-forma trivial in-person classes.

runawaybottle 6y ago

I think both are necessary. ICE is ridiculous, there should be a reasonable exception given the pandemic. I’m embarrassed this is happening in America.

letusknow123 6y ago
So we should ignore laws during times of pandemic? Edit: I can’t seem to reply to the comment below mine this might be due to the negative karma. I will edit this comment as my reply. I was a foreigner on a visa for 14 years in America. A lot of these students are playing the system if ICE is deporting them for things like not studying or breaking the rules of the visa then they are doing their job. I have been in their position and they give you a lot of chances if ICE has to grab you then your doing something really wrong. Edit #2: reply button is back. Edit #3: you can downvote me as much as you want but it doesn’t change facts.
- nine_zeros 6y ago
  Are laws meant to serve the people or to arrest them to slavery? Is a pandemic not a good enough reason to create exceptions? More importantly, if this administration could create exceptions for tax filing, printing money and stopping evictions, why can't they do it for the health of schools and educators?
  - letusknow123 6y ago
    Laws are meant to serve the people. However I feel there is more to this story. We can’t just tell ICE to ignore the law. The law should be updated if necessary but as of now it’s the law. Pandemic is a good reason for exceptions they can bring this up in immigration court. That’s what it’s for. They should have changed the law way before ICE came don’t you think? Why is it a concern now? I feel like something isn’t being presented.
    - nine_zeros 6y ago
      Why don't you apply the same logic to PPP program or eviction moratorium or tax returns? > However I feel there is more to this story. We can’t just tell Treasury and FED to ignore the law. The law should be updated if necessary but as of now it’s the law. Pandemic is a good reason for exceptions they can bring this up in supreme court. That’s what it’s for. > They should have changed the law way before the FED came don’t you think? Why is it a concern now? I feel like something isn’t being presented. Either you are being naive or more likely evasive. We elect lawmakers to make the right choices on our behalf, NOT to rigidly debate laws in emergencies. Selectively applying exceptions in one place while not at another (clearly marked by partisan politics) is NOT representative.
- runawaybottle 6y ago
  Yes, the international students followed the rules to get a student visa and get accepted into a university. They arranged for everything from admission/acceptance to travel to tuition. The pandemic a calamitous event and the law needs exemptions for this scenario. Edit: To the OP, I know how the system is played too, many immigration cases involve some level of fraud. Regardless, the cruelty factor of the system is that it allows you to commit your life to living here, while at the same time maintaining the threat of the rug being pulled out from right under you. It’s intense, and I’d like to see some of that mitigated. “Immediate deportation” is the scariest thing for anyone without a Green card.
  - letusknow123 6y ago
    I agree it’s very scary but as of now they have to debate their case in immigration court. MIT and Harvard should have made a case for this a long time ago. I also want to know if they are grabbing all student or those they suspect of things like working on their visa. If your like me you understand some people just really game the system.
    - UncleMeat 6y ago
      They should have preemptively assumed that the administration would suddenly withdraw the exception due to the pandemic? What? Nobody is gaming the system here. These are normal students who just want to live their lives without being told to pack up and leave with a couple weeks notice. Can you imagine the stress knowing that even if you do literally everything right that some bonehead who hates immigrants can change policy and suddenly make you need to completely rearrange your life?
      - letusknow123 6y ago
        The administration told them there would be some kind of action in the fall I believe. So yes they should have prepared breaking rules of the visa is very serious not something they should have been taking lightly because of previous administrations.
- igneo676 6y ago
  No. Ideally, ICE would've announced this much sooner so that Universities could prepare. Or asked for an exception or the laws changed so that this isn't a problem. Instead they chose to announce this and give universities 9 days to get everything figured out. This is patently immoral for visa holders that would otherwise be allowed to be in the country given any other circumstances (ie not a global pandemic)
  - letusknow123 6y ago
    Can they not continue their education online from their host countries and re-enter the US at a later time?
    - kkaranth 6y ago
      The problem is with international students already in the country risking traveling during a pandemic. Or the alternative: risking in-person classes.
      - letusknow123 6y ago
        The schools can just provide an in person class once a week and they could wear a mask in class and sit farther away from people. I think a lot of these students either don’t want to go to class or are working on their visa. I’ve been in their situation so I have a doubt ICE is randomly coming for them. If they did nothing wrong they can present their case in immigration court.
        nsm 6y ago
        If you were actually someone who has been through the US immigration process, your lack of empathy is appalling.
        ra7 6y ago
        > I’ve been in their situation You’ve been in their situation of being forced to attend in-person classes during a pandemic?

Aunche 6y ago

I think a trivial in-person classes may be an intentional loophole. It stops online-only universities from being a gateway to an easy long-term Visa.

addicted 6y ago
There is no such thing as an easy long term visa for these schools to be a gateway for.
- Aunche 6y ago
  I meant longer term visas rather than semipermanent visas. You could pay a few thousand a year for an online college to stay in the US wherever you want. I'm not sure why anyone would want to do that, but it's probably easier to work under the table this way when you don't have to worry about being deported.
- marcinzm 6y ago
  Sure there is or at least significantly easier than without going to a US school. There's a reason all these international students are going to US schools. Go to a US school. Get OPT visa status upon graduation for 3 years. Get a job at a US company using OPT status for your work authorization. Have US company file for a H1B lottery every year until OPT runs out. This whole time you're legally allowed to work in the US.

lalos 6y ago

Hacking? You're in for a surprise when you discover what tax attorneys do everyday. If that's the way it was written, it's mostly fair game. That's why it's tough to write effective laws that consider the actual incentives that they are placing instead of what they (whoever is writing) are expecting to happen in their minds.

milquetoastaf 6y ago

"Please tell us about the time you most successfully hacked some (non-computer) system to your advantage?" https://medium.com/terminal-1/please-tell-us-about-the-time-you-most-successfully-hacked-some-non-computer-system-to-your-b640e0200b28 https://medium.com/terminal-1/please-tell-us-about-the-time-... http://www.paulgraham.com/founders.html http://www.paulgraham.com/founders.html

vkou 6y ago

Malicious compliance is a perfectly appropriate response to a malicious law.

ISL 6y ago
It is a mitigation strategy, but it doesn't fix the problem directly.
- vkou 6y ago
  No, it's what you fall back on when you can't fix the problem directly.