6 ms·

Well there are definitely hints of some level of neurologic involvement: loss of taste and smell, very strange presentation where people with low O2 sats aren't

Well there are definitely hints of some level of neurologic involvement: loss of taste and smell, very strange presentation where people with low O2 sats aren't in respiratory distress (CNS depression?), and occasional reports of confirmed encephalopathy. SARS and MERS also have shown an ability to be neuroinvasive. I'd be more skeptical of a claim that it for sure DOESN'T have neurologic involvement.

jaekash 6y ago
> loss of taste and smell Not necessarily neurological and this is the first I heard that the loss of smell is neurological as opposed to physical[1]. But I guess everybody is a doctor now so go right ahead and say anything you like without any evidence. I mean what is the worse that could happen by spreading misinformation as long as it makes people more afraid? [1]: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-covid-19-makes-people-lose-their-sense-of-smell1/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-covid-19-make...
- carlmr 6y ago
  I'm not sure why you're attacking OP. They have been reporting neurological loss of smell since March in almost every news source. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/22/health/coronavirus-symptoms-smell-taste.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/22/health/coronavirus-sympto... https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/lost-smell-and-taste-hint-covid-19-can-target-the-nervous-system-67312 https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/lost-smell-and-ta... https://www.discovermagazine.com/health/loss-of-smell-confusion-strokes-does-covid-19-target-the-nervous-system https://www.discovermagazine.com/health/loss-of-smell-confus... https://m.economictimes.com/magazines/panache/not-just-loss-of-taste-dizziness-covid-19-may-pose-a-threat-to-entire-nervous-system-shows-study/articleshow/76340314.cms https://m.economictimes.com/magazines/panache/not-just-loss-... https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200622-the-long-term-effects-of-covid-19-infection https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200622-the-long-term-ef...
  - jaekash 6y ago
    Your first link, https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/22/health/coronavirus-symptoms-smell-taste.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/22/health/coronavirus-sympto... - makes no indication that the loss of smell is neurological. Your second link is purely speculative and not a report of neurological loss of smell. Spare your gish gallop for someone else.
    - DanBC 6y ago
      https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpsy/article/PIIS2215-0366(20)30287-X/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpsy/article/PIIS2215-0... > Concerns regarding potential neurological complications of COVID-19 are being increasingly reported, primarily in small series.
      - jaekash 6y ago
        Concerns regarding potential neurological complications != reports of neurological loss of smell. But you know that.
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
    - carlmr 6y ago
      The article doesn't spell it out but it says "Several American patients who have had symptoms consistent with the coronavirus, but who have not been tested or are still awaiting test results, described losing their senses of smell and taste, even though their noses were clear and they were not congested." That means that there's some non-obstructive issue here going on. In any case, my point was that you were attacking OP while there were a lot of reports on non obstructive loss of smell. You said it's the first you heard of it, which made me assume you didn't follow any news. Since without any judgment of the validity of these reports, it's normal to assume this is what a normal person has heard in that time. Now after your second response I have to assume you're just arguing in bad faith. It's not gish gallop to post a time line of reports from March to June.
- Vrondi 6y ago
  This is widely reported, and also a well known symptom of impending stroke. You need to read more.
beagle3 6y ago
> O2 sats aren't in respiratory distress It's important to note that low O2 doesn't cause a feeling of respiratory distress -- which is why carbon monoxide is so dangerous and why we have carbon monoxide detectors. What does cause the feeling of respiratory distress, is CO2 buildup. We are used to having low O2 and high CO2 happen together (This correlation is likely why we evolved to detect low O2 through high CO2). Usually respiratory diseases impair both O2 intake and CO2 removal. What's unusual about SARS-Cov-2 in this regard, is that it impairs O2 intake without harming CO2 removal - and it is unusual when compared to the vast majority of respiratory diseases, but also occurs in e.g. altitude sickness. To the best of my understanding, it has nothing to do with CNS depression in either SARSCov2 or altitude sickness.
- Agenttin 6y ago
  I have a lung condition which hampers CO2 removal without hampering O2 absorption. Which means I can be gasping for breath with an O2 stat in the high 90s.
irjustin 6y ago
Not saying it's "not neurological" it's more about first order vs second order effects. Loss of taste and smell are most likely first order effect - a direct result of COVID. You can't avoid this w/o avoiding My guess (just a guess) for the article is the brain damage is a result of uncontrolled fevers - a second order effect. So if you control the fever, you can avoid the serious brain damage. To that end, let's not be like OH NO BRAIN DAMAGE COVID screams. That's just not intelligent.
- danaris 6y ago
  I've seen a number of different studies that indicate that there's more going on than just fever that causes the brain and systemic damage. I'm not enough of a biologist to understand it very well, but I believe what they were saying was that once the virus damages the lining of the lungs, it then uses that to get into the bloodstream, where, if you're unlucky, it starts damaging your blood vessels. All of them. This would then explain both the higher incidence of brain inflammation, strokes, etc, in adults, and the COVID-related inflammatory syndrome in otherwise asymptomatic children. Or so the articles I was reading claimed. (Apologies for lack of sourcing; I didn't think to save links.)

jaekash 6y ago

> loss of taste and smell Not necessarily neurological and this is the first I heard that the loss of smell is neurological as opposed to physical[1]. But I guess everybody is a doctor now so go right ahead and say anything you like without any evidence. I mean what is the worse that could happen by spreading misinformation as long as it makes people more afraid? [1]: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-covid-19-makes-people-lose-their-sense-of-smell1/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-covid-19-make...

carlmr 6y ago
I'm not sure why you're attacking OP. They have been reporting neurological loss of smell since March in almost every news source. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/22/health/coronavirus-symptoms-smell-taste.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/22/health/coronavirus-sympto... https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/lost-smell-and-taste-hint-covid-19-can-target-the-nervous-system-67312 https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/lost-smell-and-ta... https://www.discovermagazine.com/health/loss-of-smell-confusion-strokes-does-covid-19-target-the-nervous-system https://www.discovermagazine.com/health/loss-of-smell-confus... https://m.economictimes.com/magazines/panache/not-just-loss-of-taste-dizziness-covid-19-may-pose-a-threat-to-entire-nervous-system-shows-study/articleshow/76340314.cms https://m.economictimes.com/magazines/panache/not-just-loss-... https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200622-the-long-term-effects-of-covid-19-infection https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200622-the-long-term-ef...
- jaekash 6y ago
  Your first link, https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/22/health/coronavirus-symptoms-smell-taste.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/22/health/coronavirus-sympto... - makes no indication that the loss of smell is neurological. Your second link is purely speculative and not a report of neurological loss of smell. Spare your gish gallop for someone else.
  - DanBC 6y ago
    https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpsy/article/PIIS2215-0366(20)30287-X/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpsy/article/PIIS2215-0... > Concerns regarding potential neurological complications of COVID-19 are being increasingly reported, primarily in small series.
    - jaekash 6y ago
      Concerns regarding potential neurological complications != reports of neurological loss of smell. But you know that.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
  - carlmr 6y ago
    The article doesn't spell it out but it says "Several American patients who have had symptoms consistent with the coronavirus, but who have not been tested or are still awaiting test results, described losing their senses of smell and taste, even though their noses were clear and they were not congested." That means that there's some non-obstructive issue here going on. In any case, my point was that you were attacking OP while there were a lot of reports on non obstructive loss of smell. You said it's the first you heard of it, which made me assume you didn't follow any news. Since without any judgment of the validity of these reports, it's normal to assume this is what a normal person has heard in that time. Now after your second response I have to assume you're just arguing in bad faith. It's not gish gallop to post a time line of reports from March to June.
Vrondi 6y ago
This is widely reported, and also a well known symptom of impending stroke. You need to read more.

beagle3 6y ago

> O2 sats aren't in respiratory distress It's important to note that low O2 doesn't cause a feeling of respiratory distress -- which is why carbon monoxide is so dangerous and why we have carbon monoxide detectors. What does cause the feeling of respiratory distress, is CO2 buildup. We are used to having low O2 and high CO2 happen together (This correlation is likely why we evolved to detect low O2 through high CO2). Usually respiratory diseases impair both O2 intake and CO2 removal. What's unusual about SARS-Cov-2 in this regard, is that it impairs O2 intake without harming CO2 removal - and it is unusual when compared to the vast majority of respiratory diseases, but also occurs in e.g. altitude sickness. To the best of my understanding, it has nothing to do with CNS depression in either SARSCov2 or altitude sickness.

Agenttin 6y ago
I have a lung condition which hampers CO2 removal without hampering O2 absorption. Which means I can be gasping for breath with an O2 stat in the high 90s.

irjustin 6y ago

Not saying it's "not neurological" it's more about first order vs second order effects. Loss of taste and smell are most likely first order effect - a direct result of COVID. You can't avoid this w/o avoiding My guess (just a guess) for the article is the brain damage is a result of uncontrolled fevers - a second order effect. So if you control the fever, you can avoid the serious brain damage. To that end, let's not be like OH NO BRAIN DAMAGE COVID screams. That's just not intelligent.

danaris 6y ago
I've seen a number of different studies that indicate that there's more going on than just fever that causes the brain and systemic damage. I'm not enough of a biologist to understand it very well, but I believe what they were saying was that once the virus damages the lining of the lungs, it then uses that to get into the bloodstream, where, if you're unlucky, it starts damaging your blood vessels. All of them. This would then explain both the higher incidence of brain inflammation, strokes, etc, in adults, and the COVID-related inflammatory syndrome in otherwise asymptomatic children. Or so the articles I was reading claimed. (Apologies for lack of sourcing; I didn't think to save links.)